Debating Mormonism - Is it Worth the Energy?

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_Ray A

Re: Debating Mormonism - Is it Worth the Energy?

Post by _Ray A »

Runtu wrote:Has anyone else (critic or believer) found that they just don't have as much emotional investment in debating Mormonism as they used to?


LDS and LDS-related boards are interesting to me. Naturally, because I invested 13 years of my life in Mormonism. You can't walk away from a marriage any less, and just forget everything. But in time the bitterness passes, and you re-evaluate your past from different perspectives. I think my life would have been less rich without my Mormon experience, even if it's all a "fraud". It's part of the "human experience". I was thinking the other day about my first stake president, who passed away several years ago. I recall him saying that he thought the second coming of Christ was "very close", in 1976. For me this is now all irrelevant, but I thought about the good person he was, honest to the core, and in my job I meet some real low-lifes and scum who would rip off their mother. Perhaps others have different impressions, but my impression of the vast majority of my Mormon friends is that they are honest, hard-working, and good people. Whatever Mormonism does, it makes people so much better. JMO. It made me better. It gave me a strong sense of ethical values in the way I should treat my fellow human beings. Yes, all those corny LDS films had a heart-warming feel, and they inculcated a feeling of the importance of people. Mormon culture is good in this sense. It provides a sense of community and belonging, thus the hand shakes, as if to say, "we are brothers and sisters". The taxi culture, in which I now work, is exactly the same. Shaking hands with fellow workers shows the bond between fellow workers (sometimes it's a way of saying, "we have to endure the same S***, so you are a brother"), and this is amazingly like Mormon culture. "You are one of us, and you are valued." I think this is the tribal instinct beastie often talks about.

So now I tend to dwell less on doctrinal things, or contention, but if I have an "emotional investment" in Mormonism, it is because I can still see the value of the culture. I don't believe opinionated board comments by some "rabid TBMS" reflects the true nature of Mormonism. If you were an employer, and a temple-going Mormon applied for a job at your work, would you trust him/her before a joint-smoking hippy? Not trying to catergorise here, because I know some bloody nice joint-smoking friends, but in all honesty, I would employ the Mormon first if honesty was a requirement of the job. If you try to destroy Mormonism, you are destroying people who are the bedrock of society. I am no where near as good as they are, and I'm not interested in church anymore, in the least, but I think Joseph Campbell's saying "find your bliss" applies here. What is bliss to one, is horror to another. But the bottom line for me is this: Does your bliss make you a better person, one who can be trusted? It was Paine who said that people who believe absurdities commit atrocities. And though I find some unlikeable thinking, like allowing people to suffer for someone else's religious beliefs, when they should be allowed the right to die (which I consider an atrocity), I think the good outweighs the bad.

It's issues like this that keep me interested. But I have no emotional investment in "church" Mormonism. Tom Ferguson apparently did, because in spite of concluding that Joseph Smith created a "spoof", he remarked that Mormonism is "the best brotherhood anywhere", and continued with activity in the church. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. If you do me no harm, and do society no harm, then as far as I'm concerned you can believe the moon is made of Swiss cheese.
_wenglund
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Re: Debating Mormonism - Is it Worth the Energy?

Post by _wenglund »

Ray A wrote:
Runtu wrote:Has anyone else (critic or believer) found that they just don't have as much emotional investment in debating Mormonism as they used to?


LDS and LDS-related boards are interesting to me. Naturally, because I invested 13 years of my life in Mormonism. You can't walk away from a marriage any less, and just forget everything. But in time the bitterness passes, and you re-evaluate your past from different perspectives. I think my life would have been less rich without my Mormon experience, even if it's all a "fraud". It's part of the "human experience". I was thinking the other day about my first stake president, who passed away several years ago. I recall him saying that he thought the second coming of Christ was "very close", in 1976. For me this is now all irrelevant, but I thought about the good person he was, honest to the core, and in my job I meet some real low-lifes and scum who would rip off their mother. Perhaps others have different impressions, but my impression of the vast majority of my Mormon friends is that they are honest, hard-working, and good people. Whatever Mormonism does, it makes people so much better. JMO. It made me better. It gave me a strong sense of ethical values in the way I should treat my fellow human beings. Yes, all those corny LDS films had a heart-warming feel, and they inculcated a feeling of the importance of people. Mormon culture is good in this sense. It provides a sense of community and belonging, thus the hand shakes, as if to say, "we are brothers and sisters". The taxi culture, in which I now work, is exactly the same. Shaking hands with fellow workers shows the bond between fellow workers (sometimes it's a way of saying, "we have to endure the same S***, so you are a brother"), and this is amazingly like Mormon culture. "You are one of us, and you are valued." I think this is the tribal instinct beastie often talks about.

So now I tend to dwell less on doctrinal things, or contention, but if I have an "emotional investment" in Mormonism, it is because I can still see the value of the culture. I don't believe opinionated board comments by some "rabid TBMS" reflects the true nature of Mormonism. If you were an employer, and a temple-going Mormon applied for a job at your work, would you trust him/her before a joint-smoking hippy? Not trying to catergorise here, because I know some bloody nice joint-smoking friends, but in all honesty, I would employ the Mormon first if honesty was a requirement of the job. If you try to destroy Mormonism, you are destroying people who are the bedrock of society. I am no where near as good as they are, and I'm not interested in church anymore, in the least, but I think Joseph Campbell's saying "find your bliss" applies here. What is bliss to one, is horror to another. But the bottom line for me is this: Does your bliss make you a better person, one who can be trusted? It was Paine who said that people who believe absurdities commit atrocities. And though I find some unlikeable thinking, like allowing people to suffer for someone else's religious beliefs, when they should be allowed the right to die (which I consider an atrocity), I think the good outweighs the bad.

It's issues like this that keep me interested. But I have no emotional investment in "church" Mormonism. Tom Ferguson apparently did, because in spite of concluding that Joseph Smith created a "spoof", he remarked that Mormonism is "the best brotherhood anywhere", and continued with activity in the church. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. If you do me no harm, and do society no harm, then as far as I'm concerned you can believe the moon is made of Swiss cheese.


Hi Ray,

I think that is a healthy attitude, and one that I have found useful when considering unbelievers who are still in the faith and those who have left the faith. What is important to me is peoples' goodness and desire to uplift themselves and mankind rather than to tear others down. So, I commend you for thinking this way, and I honor you as a great example.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Mister Scratch
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Re: Scratch

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Gazelam wrote:I tried, but you left the discussion.


The hell I did. You are too much of a moron and a mule-eared ninny to understand some very simple concepts, so why should I even bother dealing with you at all? You are spouting utter nonsense such as "The Holy Ghost is REAL!!!" As if it is real in the same sense as the chair you are sitting in. If you cannot make the very basic distinction between spiritual and material, then what is the point in talking to you at all?
_asbestosman
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Re: Scratch

Post by _asbestosman »

Mister Scratch wrote:If you cannot make the very basic distinction between spiritual and material, then what is the point in talking to you at all?


You know, according to D&C 131 the spiritual is material as well:

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
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_harmony
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Re: Scratch

Post by _harmony »

asbestosman wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:If you cannot make the very basic distinction between spiritual and material, then what is the point in talking to you at all?


You know, according to D&C 131 the spiritual is material as well:

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.


Oh, honest to frippin' Pete. Do you really believe that?
_asbestosman
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Re: Scratch

Post by _asbestosman »

harmony wrote:Oh, honest to frippin' Pete. Do you really believe that?


It's no more ridiculous than other Christian beliefs. The other ones just happen to be more popular and familiar in our culture.

But to answer your question I will say, "yes." However, I do not claim to know what is meant by matter which is more refined. I have a few ideas I toss around in my head for fun, but I think the truth will be something much more beautiful and sublime than any of us can imagine.

Oh, and if you don't, how does your shock at this scripture fit in to having faith that's just as strong as Maklelan's?
Last edited by Analytics on Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_wenglund
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:25 pm

Re: Scratch

Post by _wenglund »

harmony wrote:
asbestosman wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:If you cannot make the very basic distinction between spiritual and material, then what is the point in talking to you at all?


You know, according to D&C 131 the spiritual is material as well:

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.


Oh, honest to frippin' Pete. Do you really believe that?


I have frequently read similar expression of incredulity throughout the pages of world history, only to later discover that in many cases the incredulity was misdirected (most notably in terms of quantum leaps in science). So as to not repeat that kind of digressive history, myself, I have found it a virtue to remain more open-minded and tolerant and respectful of other points of view.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Gazelam
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Re: Scratch

Post by _Gazelam »

Mister Scratch wrote:
Gazelam wrote:I tried, but you left the discussion.


The hell I did. You are too much of a moron and a mule-eared ninny to understand some very simple concepts, so why should I even bother dealing with you at all? You are spouting utter nonsense such as "The Holy Ghost is REAL!!!" As if it is real in the same sense as the chair you are sitting in. If you cannot make the very basic distinction between spiritual and material, then what is the point in talking to you at all?


Go back and look at the thread Scrath, you left off by asking me a question, to which I responded. And if you go back and read all of our discussions, it is you who lack basic understanding of beliefs. I don't say this as an insult, just as a statement of fact.

Of cource the Holy Ghost is real, So is the Father and Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost actually makes an appearance in the Book of Mormon to Nephi, as a man (discrediting the idea that the Holy Ghost may be the Heavenly Mother, a claim some Kabbalah-ists make) This passage is found in 1 Nephi 11:11.

I know the Holy Ghost is real because I received a witness from Him. I invite you to do the same, because until then you will remain on unsteady ground in regards to what you know is true. There is a reason that the first thing missionaries do is invite people to pray about the Book of Mormon. You need a foundation to build a house of faith on.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Only to those who recognize the false nature of the church. To the truly brainwashed its counterproductive. It STRENGTHENS their testimony by showing them reality. If you tell one that Joe was a convicted criminal, they will deny or justify.
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And lost in space...and meaning
_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

Gazelam wrote:

I know the Holy Ghost is real because I received a witness from Him. I invite you to do the same, because until then you will remain on unsteady ground in regards to what you know is true. There is a reason that the first thing missionaries do is invite people to pray about the Book of Mormon. You need a foundation to build a house of faith on.


Gaz, this statement of yours involves the same circular logic that you always use. I called you on it before, some time ago. and you never responded to explain how it wasn't circular. If circular, it really doesn't prove what you think it does.

Please explain. How is circular logic anything on which one can build a foundation?
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
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