If steel was invented 1000 BC, it just stands to reason that the knowledge of how to make steel would be brought with those from the old world.
Exactly!
IF skilled metal workers came to the America's they would most certainly have brought their advanced skill and knowledge and techniques with them. Alas there is no evidence... NONE... that this is the case, hence seems unlikely any skilled metal workers arrived in the America's during Book of Mormon times.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
Sono_hito wrote:As such, if there WAS steel weapons or implements of any kind there would be quite a bit of archaeological evidence showing not only its use, but harvesting of metal and its refining into. There has been nothing of the sort forthcoming. Especially considering the astronomical amounts that the Book of Mormon credits use of here in america for purposes of war.
I know of one book at least that testifies that some boys found some ancient artifacts made of metal. I don't know what type of metal it was but I believe now that it was shields. The boys took the shields they found and sold them to a scrap metal yard. I will try and obtain the name of the Book for you. The woman who wrote the Book lives in Las Vegas, NV and I know her. I have relatives living in Las Vegas and I will try and get a copy of that book and give you some quote. However, If you are interested enough some of that metal is in a meseum of Natual History in New York City.
Sorry that I can't remember the name of that book but I will find out.
2Sa 22:35 He trains my hands for battle so that my arms can bend an archer's bow of bronze.
I have to appologize, I do not know The God's Word Translation. I study the King James Bible most of the time. I do read other translations and most of them state the exact same words as the King James about the bow of steel. But I will say that I don't believe bronze could be used for a bow. It seems to me that it would only bend.
grampa75
grampa75 wrote:Did the people living in the Americas at the time the Book of Mormon was being written by the American prophets, have steel as it was written in the Book of Mormon when Nephi broke his bow of steel. Anyone who doubts that steel existed during those times must not be well read in the scriptures. The time that it was written in the Book of Mormon that Nephi broke his bow of steel was about 600 BC. But about 1000 BC this verse is written in the Bible concerning steel weapons.
2 Samuel 22: 35 He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken in mine arms.
This passage very usefully provides evidence for three important points:
* Smith using the KJV as as source for the Book of Mormon
* Smith having little or no understanding of when the KJV translation was wrong
* Smith having little or no understanding of Hebrew metaphor
The KJV is wrong to translate the Hebrew word here as 'steel'. It does not mean steel. Modern translations render it 'bronze'. Moreover, the Hebrew literally means 'and a bow of bronze is bent by my arms', nothing about it being broken. It is in the context of a laudatory ode, and is a poetic metaphor. It seems that Smith simply lifted it the phrase from the KJV without understanding that the translation was wrong on two points, that steel was not known in the Ancient Near East this early, and without realizing it was a metaphor.
I cannot accept the King James Bible as being translated wrong. And there is just too much offered in the Book of Mormon other than the one verse about breaking a steel bow, that is much more important. There are many translators that disagree with one another to really take their word for anything. Like I have said before, every word has to be established by two or more witnesses in order for us to accept their word for anything. One of those witnesses has to be the Holy Spirit.
I wrote a lengthy essay providing many references from Mesoamerican scholars, all asserting that there was no metallurgy at all, much less steel production, during the Book of Mormon time period in Mesoamerica (which is where current Book of Mormon apologists choose to set the Book of Mormon).
This is a very serious problem for the Book of Mormon, because of the detailed references not only to the products of metallurgy, but the process itself. Supposedly even the Jaredites knew how to mine for metal and smelt it.
Once again, there is no evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica during the Book of Mormon time period.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
grampa75 wrote:Did the people living in the Americas at the time the Book of Mormon was being written by the American prophets, have steel as it was written in the Book of Mormon when Nephi broke his bow of steel. Anyone who doubts that steel existed during those times must not be well read in the scriptures. The time that it was written in the Book of Mormon that Nephi broke his bow of steel was about 600 BC. But about 1000 BC this verse is written in the Bible concerning steel weapons.
2 Samuel 22: 35 He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken in mine arms. There is one other things that tends to prove the validity of the Book of Mormon is when Lehi, after having marched for three days from Jerusalem camped by the borders of the Red Sea. He named a river that flowed into the Red Sea after one of his son. And named a valley which was by the river that flowed into the Red Sea after his other son. The problem with that verse is that the Red Sea is over 200 miles from Jerusalem and could not be reached in only 3 days. The Red Sea is situated in a volcanic mountain and is fed from underground. In the entire history of Israel (until 1963) there was never a river that flowed into the Red Sea. In the Book of Josephus, which was published in the United States in 1963 we find this verse:
The Tigres, the Phison (Which is now called the Ganges) and the Euphrates flowed into the Red Sea.
There is a footnote after that 3rd verse on page 25 in the book called Antiquities of the Jews that reads: (here is not only the South Sea which alone we call by that name today, but all the water surrounding Israel up to the East Indies were called the Red Sea.)
Joseph Smith had no way of knowing that there was a river that flowed into the Red Sea because that information was not known to anyone at the time of Joseph Smith. So wouldn't you say that Joseph Smith had to be inspired of God to know that a river flowed into the Red Sea when the world believed that there was never a river that flowed into the Red Sea.
Just wondering how others would take that information. grampa75
There has never been any steel excavated from the americas nor has there EVER been any means of production elements in the new world prior to the Europeans bringing it to the Americas.
It is assisnine and ignorant to believe the Bible, let alone the Book of Mormon to be a method of validating the truth claims of an even more assinine document.
Do your homework and get back to me before making an even bigger ass out of yourself.
I believe that you would be able to find a great amount of steel in ancient america if it could only stand the test of time. If there did happen to be steel at 400 AD it would not have lasted long enough for it to remain as steel. I will look into that a little deeper as you have suggested before I make an even more assinine of myself. Thank you.
grampa75
I believe that you would be able to find a great amount of steel in ancient america if it could only stand the test of time. If there did happen to be steel at 400 AD it would not have lasted long enough for it to remain as steel. I will look into that a little deeper as you have suggested before I make an even more assinine of myself. Thank you. grampa75
Nonsense. Read my essay I provided in the above link and you will find an abundance of evidence for metallurgy - both the products and the process - from about 900 AD on.
Evidence exists, just in the wrong time frame.
Look, I can tell you are new at this. You really need to do some reading on these subjects. Do not rely on what you have been taught at church.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
grampa75 wrote:I cannot accept the King James Bible as being translated wrong.
Why not? It's the truth. Don't take my word for it, look it up yourself in a reputable Hebrew lexicon.
And there is just too much offered in the Book of Mormon other than the one verse about breaking a steel bow, that is much more important.
Feel free to start a new thread about them.
There are many translators that disagree with one another to really take their word for anything.
Yet you choose to believe one of them. Why? Incidentally, the fact that many translations 'disagree' with each other doesn't prove that they are all untrustworthy. Moreover, their 'disagreements' are almost always simply different legitimate ways of translating the text. Now how many translations can you find which disagree that the word here should be translated 'brozne'?
Like I have said before, every word has to be established by two or more witnesses in order for us to accept their word for anything. One of those witnesses has to be the Holy Spirit.
Did the Holy Spirit tell you that the relevant Hebrew word here means 'steel'?
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
I have a friend who is a blacksmith and versed well in metalurgy for the metals involved. Ill contact him and see if he would be willing to put in a few words on the subject.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
beastie wrote:I don't understand your question. You seem to ask whether or not steel existed in ancient America during the Book of Mormon time period, but the "evidence" you cite is a scripture from the Old World.
I was using a scripture from the Old Testament to establish the fact that steel was in existence long before it was written about in the Book of Mormon. If they had steel in Israel in 1000 BC it just stands to reason that the method of making that steel would have been taken with those who came to America.
I'm not sure you have an understanding of what "grampa75 x 1" means.