What if you ask and the anwer is.....

[_asbestosman]

I was implying (maybee poorly) that you are asking him to go through the motions again.

Well I'm not. Glad to clear that up. He's perfectly capable of making his own decision. However, if he wants another TBM POV, I recommend he look elsewhere.

[_Seven]

[

quote="Jason Bourne


A hallmark of spiritual life in the LDS church is the concept of asking God for confirmation. We are told by "to search the scriptures... ask your heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, to manifest the truth of it unto you....He will answer you. What if I or some of the others here got an answer that polygamy or some other things was not from God.

For the women a "no" answer meant having your character ruined. They were labeled harlots, whores, liars, apostates...
For the men, excommunication but many left on their own free will.

I have often wondered why some women desired to receive spiritual confirmation to marry Joseph after knowing they would have to sneak around behind Emma's back and deceive the church. Why would a woman even desire to receive a testimony of something that's abominable and deceitful?

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, please ask your bishop, home-teachers, spouse, parents, or others who are close to you. I am really not all that good at such things. My problem being that I'm not particularly skilled at discerning the spirit and even less so at explaining it.

Well here is the problem.

I talk to my SP, who is also my friend, quite a bit. He knows the issue that are bothering me. He is well read. For him the solution has been to put a lot on the shelf. I have done that but the shelf is starting to break. How much can you put on the shelf. My SP also suggests prayer and scriptures. He also comments "Can you really say that NOTHING happened in the grove to Joseph?" Well no, I cannot say nothing happened but none of us can say WHAT happened for sure. We go by what we call the spirit. And if we get any answer different then Joseph Saw God and Jesus and told him to start the true Church we have the wrong answer.

So why ask?

Again, the controversial issue of polygamy highlights this. Joseph tells people the God told me to do this. "William, God told me to marry your wife." William says "HORSECRAP! God tells me you have gone to far Joseph. Please give this up" William fails the test and is branded less faithful, apostate, evil, enemy. Joseph says "Heber, give me your wife and your daughter. If you give me your daughter you all will be exalted." Heber and Vilate pray and say "Ok Joseph, here is my wife and daughter." Heber passed the test and becomes the epitome of obedience and faithfulness for ever and ever. This story was portrayed to me as a youth as and example f a true follower of God. I used to admire Heber and think "oh....if I will only be so true as Heber!"

So nobody really means it when they say we are not expected to blindly follow and we can get our own answers. What they mean is the Prophet is always right and if you don't agree just pray hard enough till you do. Any answer that disagrees means you fail the test.

Now I am not in expert on psychology this approach seems to me to really border on mind control and manipulation Pray and you will get confirmation. Any other answer is really unacceptable.

Also, I have discuessed this with my best friend who is a member and a person I helped bring into the church many years ago. I get the same thing now and how can I blame him? I taught him to pray till he gets confirmation and essentially that if he did not get the right anser to keep at it.

[_Jason Bourne]

think the "faithful" answer is that you're not praying to find out if [church | Book of Mormon | whatever] is true. You're praying for confirmation that it's true. In that context, yeah, you either find out its true (ie: pass the test) or you don't find it's true (ie: fail the test, or else God is trying your faith), but the truth of the matter is never up for grabs, not really.

Jason, I think you're thinking is pretty good on this one. I totally agree with the others, and regard this as a watershed moment of opportunity to gain insight into the reality of the church and the belief system. A good followup question to this is what does mean when one TBM prays about something and gets one answer, like that Noah's Ark didn't happen and it's only allegorical or metaphorical, while another TBM prays about it, and believes God is confirming to him that it in fact happened exactly as described in Genesis, (ie: worldwide, catastrophic flood, Noah and his family the only surviving homo sapiens on the planet, etc.)?

For that matter, a really good followup question is how can you tell that any spiritual confirmation you receive to any LDS question is really any different than the spiritual confirmations that other members of others churches receive, even on questions whose answers are mutually-exclusive with LDS claims or teachings?

What does it mean when an FLDS receives a spiritual confirmation that Warren Jeffs truly is God's chosen mouthpiece on earth? What is materially different about the nature of the spiritual witness an LDS receives from the witnesses attested to by others, which LDS must admit cannot all be true?

You comment further highlight the issue. I have a very good evangliecal firend hwo thinks his spiritual confirmations are as good as mine and his confirmation is that Joseph was a false prophet and LDS are misled. Other good people get spiritual confirmations all the time.

So, again, if we are not supposed to follow blindly why is it always the case that we get the wrong answer if we think the anwer is this is not right, true or whatever.

I mean let's just say it like Sethbag notes above. THe Church does teach that one MUST follow the prophet or the are not in the correct way. If one disagrees one is suppsoed to pray till they agree. It is not ok to get a different answer. So why does the Church encourage this at all?

[_Jason Bourne]

You need to break your question down to its most basic point.

I think I have done that.

Is Jesus the Christ? The answer of coarse is yes. Anyone who is told otherwise is listening to a false spirit. This is without question.

I personally have faith that Jesus is the Christ but it is faith. I do not have perfect knowledge of this. Nor do you. Nor do any LDS though they think they do.

Now, a true follower of Christ must be baptized (Mark 16:16)and take upon themselves his name and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:14-17). Any spirit testifying of something other than this is not of God.

I have done all this. So had William Law and William Marks.

This series of questions moves on to authority, the need for Prophets, the need for Temple ordinances, and so on. if the basics are true (And they are) the rest is also.

My MP used to say "If Joseph Smith was a prophet then it is all true. All that matters is if He saw God and Jesus. If investigators have a testimony of that and will commit to the commandments they are ready to be baptized."

But why is it ALL true even if God called him? David fell. Joseph could have too. Any thing after the first vision, if it indeed happened could all be a lie for all we know.

don't spend so much time on the nonsence, go back and study the first principles. Come back to the harder questions after youve been refreshed.

I appreciate your remarks but is this just not another way of saying "put it on the shelf and don't worry yourself over it." Then go back, get the right answer, because any other answer is wrong.

And always pray, asking for the spirit.

well what if I have been doing this and the spirit tells me something smells in Denmark? What then Gaz? Because you know what? I have been praying the answer is telling me Joseph went hay wire some where along the way. So what do I now?

[_harmony]

I'm going to try to give some help here, but please understand that I'm really short of time for the next two days, so I'm not going to be able to follow up much.

Here's how I do it.

I believe some basic things, God exists and is the father of my spirit and he loves me, that are untouchable for me. I no longer dwell on those basics; they are simply part of who I am. I make no excuses for my belief, nor do I try to win anyone else over to my belief. That is simply part of who I am. Everyone who knows me, know those beliefs are just part of me. Over the years, I have developed a relationship with God that I trust more than I trust anything else on this earth. I trust my link to God so that I know what is good for me and what isn't in every aspect of my life. As I've gotten older, I've learned to trust the link I have with God. I've also learned that I don't get to know what's good for someone else (been there, done that, have the burn marks on my heart to prove it).

As far as my religion, the LDS church, is concerned, my inner link tells me that Joseph started off fine, but he got off track with Fanny, and things went downhill from there. I cannot fight my link in order to change my view of Joseph's life. I tried that for a while, and paid the price. I am unwilling to do that ever again, the pain and disruption it caused me was so great. Very little of what Joseph did in the latter years of his life passes unfiltered through my link. So, I discard much of it. Since then, each prophet has done good things and bad things, all in the name of God. My link tells me that I don't have to support everything an individual prophet did, in order to maintain my belief in God. My belief in God in more important to me than the church. As long as the two don't collide, I can maintain my membership.

It's taken me a while to get to this place in my life. I once ran from pillar to post, trying to find a place that was holy (and therefore comfortable) for me. Now I make every place I stand a holy place. I suggest you find a way to make that which is most important toyou basic to your life, so that every place you stand is holy, and therefore comfortable, for you. Right now, I think you're searching for a holy place to stand, and you're uncomfortable and unable to come to terms with the things that are contradictory to your basics. What are you basics? What is the bottom line for you? Once you have established that, you can build on it. Maybe it means you leave the church because it feels too uncomfortable; maybe it means you stay, but on your own terms. But your vision of who you are and the basics of what you believe is what's important. If you remain true to yourself, you will find a way through the maze that is life.

[_Coggins7]

personally have faith that Jesus is the Christ but it is faith. I do not have perfect knowledge of this. Nor do you. Nor do any LDS though they think they do.

I think your fundamental, core, primary challenge Jason, is to overcome this thoroughgoing and pervading hubris. This is pride, if I may say so not meaning to give offfence, in a most aggressive and implacable form, and I think it is precisely for this reason you are having your troubles with the principle of testimony, and why prayer, up to this point, has not worked for you.

I have no idea what species of arrogance or presumption could exist in your mind such that you could make statements about the metaphysical actualities and perceptions of others for them, but apparently such has come to exist in your own inner world.

I know Jesus is the Christ without any possible doubt. I know it directly and completely. I know that his church is on the earth, and that Joseph Smith was his Prophet. I know these things fully and without conceptual ambiguity because God himself has revealed them to me. I understand that you do not know, and I appreciate that, but I'm not sure at all I understand or appreciate how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what I or other Mormons know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience of not knowing.

I do appreciate the troubles your having, but to reconcile them, I think your going to have to relinquish a great deal of the wall against doing it the Lord's way you seem to have built around the solution. You already seem to have made up your mind what the answer to your problem with revelation and testimony is, and that seems to be that the principle is, in essence, fictitious. Of course, if you've already found the answer, what point is their in the further exploration of the questions?

If you'll forgive me, I also don't really think you have a very good grasp of the meaning of the term "faith" as understood in the Restored Gospel. You are attempting to extract faith from revelation and knowledge and isolate them, and that's going to further wreck any attempts you might make to resove your questions and doubts because they cannot be so extracted and compartmentalized.

Loran

[_Mercury]

personally have faith that Jesus is the Christ but it is faith. I do not have perfect knowledge of this. Nor do you. Nor do any LDS though they think they do.

I think your fundamental, core, primary challenge Jason, is to overcome this thoroughgoing and pervading hubris. This is pride, if I may say so not meaning to give offfence, in a most aggressive and implacable form, and I think it is precisely for this reason you are having your troubles with the principle of testimony, and why prayer, up to this point, has not worked for you.

I have no idea what species of arrogance or presumption could exist in your mind such that you could make statements about the metaphysical actualities and perceptions of others for them, but apparently such has come to exist in your own inner world.

I know Jesus is the Christ without any possible doubt. I know it directly and completely. I know that his church is on the earth, and that Joseph Smith was his Prophet. I know these things fully and without conceptual ambiguity because God himself has revealed them to me. I understand that you do not know, and I appreciate that, but I'm not sure at all I understand or appreciate how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what I or other Mormons know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience of not knowing.

I do appreciate the troubles your having, but to reconcile them, I think your going to have to relinquish a great deal of the wall against doing it the Lord's way you seem to have built around the solution. You already seem to have made up your mind what the answer to your problem with revelation and testimony is, and that seems to be that the principle is, in essence, fictitious. Of course, if you've already found the answer, what point is their in the further exploration of the questions?

If you'll forgive me, I also don't really think you have a very good grasp of the meaning of the term "faith" as understood in the Restored Gospel. You are attempting to extract faith from revelation and knowledge and isolate them, and that's going to further wreck any attempts you might make to resove your questions and doubts because they cannot be so extracted and compartmentalized.

Loran

Wow cog, can you be a little more condescending?

[_Who Knows]

I think your fundamental, core, primary challenge Jason, is to overcome this thoroughgoing and pervading hubris. This is pride, if I may say so not meaning to give offfence, in a most aggressive and implacable form, and I think it is precisely for this reason you are having your troubles with the principle of testimony, and why prayer, up to this point, has not worked for you.

I have no idea what species of arrogance or presumption could exist in your mind such that you could make statements about the metaphysical actualities and perceptions of others for them, but apparently such has come to exist in your own inner world.

I know Jesus is the Christ without any possible doubt. I know it directly and completely. I know that his church is on the earth, and that Joseph Smith was his Prophet. I know these things fully and without conceptual ambiguity because God himself has revealed them to me. I understand that you do not know, and I appreciate that, but I'm not sure at all I understand or appreciate how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what I or other Mormons know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience of not knowing.

What if I said "I know without any possible doubt that Mormonism is bunk." What would that say about your 'knowledge' that it's true? Would it be reasonable for me to conclude that you don't actually know it? Either you're wrong or I'm wrong. But I'm not wrong. :)

[_Mercury]

I think your fundamental, core, primary challenge Jason, is to overcome this thoroughgoing and pervading hubris. This is pride, if I may say so not meaning to give offfence, in a most aggressive and implacable form, and I think it is precisely for this reason you are having your troubles with the principle of testimony, and why prayer, up to this point, has not worked for you.

I have no idea what species of arrogance or presumption could exist in your mind such that you could make statements about the metaphysical actualities and perceptions of others for them, but apparently such has come to exist in your own inner world.

I know Jesus is the Christ without any possible doubt. I know it directly and completely. I know that his church is on the earth, and that Joseph Smith was his Prophet. I know these things fully and without conceptual ambiguity because God himself has revealed them to me. I understand that you do not know, and I appreciate that, but I'm not sure at all I understand or appreciate how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what I or other Mormons know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience of not knowing.

What if I said "I know without any possible doubt that Mormonism is bunk." What would that say about your 'knowledge' that it's true? Would it be reasonable for me to conclude that you don't actually know it? Either you're wrong or I'm wrong. But I'm not wrong. :)

This comes back to my "Wade is a homosexual because I believe he is" argument.