Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

What came first, the apostate who attacked the church or the church leader who attacked the apostate?


You’re trying to sum this up in a specific instance whereas I think the post is directing our attention to the overall established rule in Mormonism that every Mormon is already very aware of. Mormons, long before they ever consider apostasy, are given the “inspired” version of what causes it. The idea behind it, I think, is to control the membership’s inactivity. The Church has to control its own membership from straying and they do this by instilling a sense of guilt whenever they dare think critically or doubt certain facets of the faith. They have already been conditioned to believe this process is nothing more than Satanic spirits overcoming your mind and you must therefore repent and pray and ask for forgiveness. If you don’t, then you’re a spiritually weak person and the Church is better off without you.

Given the social paradigm of religion that Juliann outlined for us, people are inclined to believe what the social group believes because they need to belong to something. The last thing anyone wants to be is an outcast. She tried arguing that so many ex-Mormons leave the faith because it is just an expected trend among humans who want to find acceptance in another group, but most ex-Mormons go against the social expectations by not joining other "groups." Most of them suffer the fate of social outcasts, often being rejected by close friends and family. That some would seek out ex-Mormon organizations afterwards, is understandable since we are all social creatures, but initially ex-Mormons generally operate under a sense of intellectual duty, social rewards be damned.

The Church and its apologists have done everything possible to convince the membership that there is no legitimate intellectual reason to leave the faith. I have copies of past discussions from FAIR that talk about this exact point. I was amazed at the number of Mormons who insisted apostasy comes from sin, perod. They didn't even consider the possibility that a legitimate reason could be given for leaving the faith. No matter what problems, no matter what evidence went against a certain Church claim, apostasy was always the fault of the apostate. The Church received a free pass at every turn, and could never be guilty of anything because the gospel is true, therefore only the people are imperfect. Even Daniel Peterson jumped in this discussion, encouraging the participating LDS to continue this illogical line of thought. Aside from the problems with the Book of Abraham apologetic, this aspect of Mormonsim is perhaps the most troubling for me, and I understand now why so many people think it is a cult. It has less to do with the temple and religious rites considered "weird" by orthodox Christians. I suspect it has more to do with the success it has had in instilling a monolithic mindset in the membership.

Beastie asked where the cycle of negativity between ex-Morons and Mormons begins. You seem to think the first instance of apostasy is what began the entire cycle (do we even know what the first instance was?). But to merely leave the Church is not to create an eternal cycle of negativity “between ex-Mormons and Mormons.” People can fall into apostasy without becoming avid critics, yet the Church has already judged them as spiritually deficient. It takes the offensive against them befor3e and after their apostasy. Read the RFM board and you can surely see that much of the hate and resentment by ex-Mormons is grounded in the mistreatment they have claimed to have received from the Church membership. Almost all of them have some story of injustice done to them. But then again, the Church has figured a way around this problem too because it teaches its members that ex-Mormons become something less than human. They are the devil’s pawns now, so since Satan is the father of lies, so too must these apostates be lying.

Great post beastie
_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

To Maklelan,

A personal anecdote. I used to be allowed to post on the FAIR/mad-ness boards. I experienced first-hand from the likes of Charity (how ironic!) and others this very thing which Beastie and Kevin have posted here. I witnessed every one of those "defense positions" used by the TBM crowd.

Moreover, I have experienced it from my own family. I can handle the posters on boards doing it. But, it can be quite painful when it is your very own family that shuns you for leaving the church, endlessly reminding you that you are a sinner, lazy, etc. It is not very enjoyable, to say the least. There is never a "good and valid reason" for leaving the Church from the perspective of the insider.

This is due, I am sure, to the conditioning one receives from the first day one attends the Church. The Church will never give it a rest. How can it?

By the way, you have still been given the opportunity to show a statement from any Church leaders which suggests that one who leaves may have a valid reason and that it might not have to do with the typical cult-like responses that have been catalogued here.

Please, find it for us. I have yet to find one, but I could be wrong. If you do, I would be eternally grateful because I could then show it to my family and help them to see just how judgmental and unchristian-like their behavior has been.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Makelan,

I grew up mainstream protestant, and returned, for a brief period, to mainstream protestantism when I left the LDS church. It seems to me that you don't realize that the phenomenon of apostates "attacking" their former religion only occurs in certain circumstances. By far, the majority of people who decide to no longer attend a certain church aren't stigmatized and the members were never taught that they would do so only out of sin or character flaws. The result is that those people leave the organization and normally no one, on either side, says a word about it.

It is the organizations like Mormonism, JW, catholicism (to varying degrees), scientology, that create apostates that attack the faith. What is their common denominator? It is that they each teach they have some sort of specialness that makes them unique as the "one true" something. When an organization teaches it is the "one true" something, then it becomes imperative to rationalize themselves in the face of the majority of the rest of the human race who rejects their "one true" something and even views their claims as outlandish. When an organization teaches it is the "one true" something that God wants all people to embrace, it also develops a mythology to explain those who leave that "one true" faith. The evil apostate story. Of course the church is true! Of course God tells us so!!! Only an evil apostate would say otherwise!

Don't you see how it would create a problem for "one true" organizations to admit that people who leave may be sincere, decent individuals who have legitimate reasons for loss of faith? It is THOSE sort of churches that create "apostates" who "attack" the church.

So if Mormonism changed itself enough to admit that sincere, decent people can leave the faith for legitimate reasons, I predict it would no longer create "apostates" who "attack" the church. Of course there are always minor exceptions to any rule, but I think generally experience with the world outside Mormonism and exmormonism validates this generalization.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Dart is one of the very few believers I've encountered on the internet who understand this problem, by the way. There are a couple of others that come to mind as well. Dart is often treated as a traitor by believers because he empathizes with the evil "apostate".
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

beastie wrote:Dart is one of the very few believers I've encountered on the internet who understand this problem, by the way. There are a couple of others that come to mind as well. Dart is often treated as a traitor by believers because he empathizes with the evil "apostate".


I tried to be empathetic to the apostates when I was a believing apologist. And look where it got me!!

Be careful, dart. You never know where you'll end up.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Analytics
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Re: Deuteronomy 13:12-18

Post by _Analytics »

Gazelam wrote:12 ¶ If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

Sounds to me like they took apostacy pretty serious in Old Testament days as well. And the worship of a God is the worship of anything that seperates you from God. That which you spend your free time doing is that which you worship.


Why use a passage that commands the faithful to murder apostates to justify merely "taking seriously" apostacy? It seems to me that if you took the Bible seriously, you'd advocate getting out your sword.
_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

When I go back to the first moments I had felt betrayed by the church after learning polygamy history, I remember a feeling of being trapped in the church and saw no way out. The reason for this was because I knew every LDS friend or family member would never believe this to be a real reason to leave the church. I knew they would try to find fault with my character and blame it on Satan having a hold on me, some hidden sin, laziness, etc. I knew that would be the reaction because it was the one I was taught in church and conditioned by others to have. I have seen family members deceive others about a faithful LDS's apostacy by coming up with lame excuses to avoid uncomfortable topics.

I myself had been deceived in the past by members in my ward when a few people had left over church history. The members told me it was because they didn't have strong enough testimonies.

Members that know the real reason for faithful LDS leaving the church are the guilty ones when they intentionally mislead others, by slandering the characters of good people who should be troubled by Mormon doctrines and teachings of the past. The behavior is reprehensable when apologists do it because they are not ignorant of these troubling issues.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_cacheman
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Post by _cacheman »

Why use a passage that commands the faithful to murder apostates to justify merely "taking seriously" apostacy? It seems to me that if you took the Bible seriously, you'd advocate getting out your sword.

Or a stone? The God of the old testament does not appear to have tolerated former believers at all. I guess the character assassination of today is at least not as bad as death by stoning.

Seriously Gaz, what are your thoughts on these verses?
Leviticus
24.16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. As well the stranger as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy
12.6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend who is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, `Let us go and serve other gods,’ which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers

12.7 (namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth),

12.8 thou shalt not consent unto him nor hearken unto him, neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him;

12.9 but thou shalt surely kill him. Thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

beastie wrote:Makelan,

I grew up mainstream protestant, and returned, for a brief period, to mainstream protestantism when I left the LDS church. It seems to me that you don't realize that the phenomenon of apostates "attacking" their former religion only occurs in certain circumstances. By far, the majority of people who decide to no longer attend a certain church aren't stigmatized and the members were never taught that they would do so only out of sin or character flaws. The result is that those people leave the organization and normally no one, on either side, says a word about it.

It is the organizations like Mormonism, JW, catholicism (to varying degrees), scientology, that create apostates that attack the faith. What is their common denominator? It is that they each teach they have some sort of specialness that makes them unique as the "one true" something. When an organization teaches it is the "one true" something, then it becomes imperative to rationalize themselves in the face of the majority of the rest of the human race who rejects their "one true" something and even views their claims as outlandish. When an organization teaches it is the "one true" something that God wants all people to embrace, it also develops a mythology to explain those who leave that "one true" faith. The evil apostate story. Of course the church is true! Of course God tells us so!!! Only an evil apostate would say otherwise!

Don't you see how it would create a problem for "one true" organizations to admit that people who leave may be sincere, decent individuals who have legitimate reasons for loss of faith? It is THOSE sort of churches that create "apostates" who "attack" the church.

So if Mormonism changed itself enough to admit that sincere, decent people can leave the faith for legitimate reasons, I predict it would no longer create "apostates" who "attack" the church. Of course there are always minor exceptions to any rule, but I think generally experience with the world outside Mormonism and exmormonism validates this generalization.


Well said as always Beastie. I wish I could send this thread to every LDS member I have discussed my feelings with. (along with the article Dr. Shades linked)

I have recently had to play the Satan card right back at them. When they accuse me of being deceived by Satan, I say it is they who have been deceived for defending immoral behavior they would condemn of anybody else. (on the topic of polygamy)

One TBM family member talked about how an anti Mormon came to her door passing out DNA material and she was outraged. She mentioned that the TRUE church is being attacked because Satan is working hard against it in these latter days. When I mentioned that there are anti Catholics, anti Scientologists, and anti Jehova Witnesses, she looked a little troubled and ceased her complaints. For her it was validating to see the anti Mormon in a war against the one true church but how can she explain the others?

I also had an experience with a TBM friend who criticized the Catholic church for having so many inactives and people who claim to be Catholic but don't follow the faith. When I mentioned that the LDS church has around 60% or more inactivity rate, she looked troubled and had to agree with me that there is no difference between the two.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

I like Mormons, I really do. I think they are GOOD people, despite the "bigotry". Bigotry exists among ALL people. They only need to look inward to see it. The bottom line, for me, is that I would trust a Mormon before most others. Spew, spit, and froth from the mouth in anger if you will, but I'm calling it as I see it. If I had to choose between bigots like Scratch, and Dan Peterson, guess what my choice would be.

Good night one and all. I will sleep in peace, having had my say.
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