Utah #1 in nation in teen suicides

[_maklelan]

I suspect a large number of these suicide victims were chronic masturbators. Tinkering with the delicate mechanisms of your little factory leads to great guilt....

All jokes aside, Boyd, I think there's something to what you are saying here. It's hard enough for young people, without pompous jackasses like you telling them their bodily urges are dirty and sinful.

I'm not aware of any GA ever telling anyone that sexual desire was ever dirty or sinful. Would you mind documenting this, please?

I've always thought it was funny that Mormons get all excited when stats show low cancer rates or alcoholism rates in Utah, but when it's high suicide and antidepressant rates, we can't make any correlations. LOL

I rarely find statistics that exciting, but I'm curious what the breakdown is of LDS/Non LDS, Active/Not Active, and stuff like that. In addition, I'm not aware of any doctrine that states that LDS folk will not be subject to affliction or temptation. If I recall correctly, it's quite the opposite. I've never (as far as I can recall) pointed to any kind of state or national statistic as a sign of anything, but for those that would like to draw conclusions from this, perhaps some more information would be helpful.

[_Fortigurn]

I don't know what "legitimate life choice" means, but I guess if I were asked to define it, I would start by eliminating things that it's NOT. Like suicide.

A legitimate life choice is a choice in one's personal life which has a reasonable rationale.

So from your POV, what's something that's NOT a legitimate life choice?

Stabbing someone in the face because you don't like them.

That's another strange thing you say. Religion is very superstitious about death... but you say the secular world is superstitious?

Not all religions are superstitious about death. Some of them are very practical and intelligent about it.

I dunno. Enough secular people are fine with cremation and sprinkling ashes over some place of sentimental significance... that's me anyway. I don't think that's superstitious at all.

It's not just the ritualism (which appears to be part of the way we're made - secular or religious, we seem driven to ritual behaviour), it's the demonising of death, the fear of death, the treatment of it as if it were something alien to us which has to be put off at all costs, and which is the worst thing which can possibly happen. The embalming of people, to delay their inevitable decay. What's all that about? The Egyptians had good religious reasons for doing so, but in the secular world it's just a wild grasp at artificial immortality.

Death is a natural part of our life cycle. If we weren't so obsessed with trying to avoid it, we would be a lot better off. Dragging people's lives out beyond reasonable necessity with all the artificial contrivances we can think of, stumbling into ethical dilemma after ethical dilemma - does anyone really think that's a good idea? People die, let's get over it. I think many religions have a far healthier attitude towards death than the usual secular views. Except for religions which think that we never really die, we just go to live somewhere else. I don't think they're very healthy.

[_Fortigurn]

Too much pressure on a child to be something he/she isn't.

Too much pressure on a child to do that which doesn't feel right to them.

Too much pain to deal with.

Too few resources at their disposal.

Too few acceptable choices available.

Too much judgment.

Too little tolerance for difference.

Too few coping skills.

Too few healthy alternatives.

Too little knowledge.

Too little official concern.

Very true. Alas, the secular world doesn't do much better.

[_Mephitus]

Harmony, that pretty much sums up the entire problem. I know that due to all of those reasons at one point or another i nearly attempted suicide on more than one occasion.

As a Mormon, you are told you HAVE to be perfect. (which you can't)

You are told that natural urges of the body are sinfull and wrong (they are beautifull)

When not feeling right, you are told your not trying hard enough. (they try too hard)

All fixes revolve around a judgemental system that makes you feel like even less of a person, belittled because you arent "doing the right thing". (which is b***s***)

People suffering depression need REAL answers and REAL help from professionals who are willing to stand up to the crap that religions such as this spout. We need to teach our children realistic expectations on life and behavior.

To me one of the most important things plagueing our society right now is a lack of teaching proper emotional coping techniques. This isn't just tied into Mormonism, this is what I've seen across the US.

[_Mephitus]

mak, i was told by my own bishop that if you have sinned in the mind, you have sinned of the flesh. Likewise, if you have had a carnal thought of a woman under any context you have sinned and are in need of repentance.

He went so far as to tell me that if i had a "naughty" dream, since dreams are completely controlable(in his world view), that i have basicly commited adultery and need to confess/repent. I was also told that anything that arose any kind of sexual feelings, such as even seeing unworn underware was sinfull.

So don't tell me that sex isn't told off as being wrong and sinfull.

[_maklelan]

As a Mormon, you are told you HAVE to be perfect.

I was never told this. In fact, I was told quite the opposite--that I couldn't be perfect.

You are told that natural urges of the body are sinfull and wrong

I was never told this. In fact, I was told that they were the most powerful, beautiful and most important powers on earth.

When not feeling right, you are told your not trying hard enough.

I was never told this. I was told that everyone experiences pain, insecurity and doubt. I was also told that Christ, the only perfect person ever, felt worse than all of us put together.

All fixes revolve around a judgemental system that makes you feel like even less of a person, belittled because you arent "doing the right thing". (which is b***s***)

People suffering depression need REAL answers and REAL help from professionals who are willing to stand up to the crap that religions such as this spout. We need to teach our children realistic expectations on life and behavior.

To me one of the most important things plagueing our society right now is a lack of teaching proper emotional coping techniques. This isn't just tied into Mormonism, this is what I've seen across the US.

Wow. This whole system you present seems remarkably manufactured. What it doesn't seem like is Mormonism. At least, Mormonism as it really is.

[_Fortigurn]

Harmony, that pretty much sums up the entire problem. I know that due to all of those reasons at one point or another I nearly attempted suicide on more than one occasion.

As a Mormon, you are told you HAVE to be perfect. (which you can't)

You are told that natural urges of the body are sinfull and wrong (they are beautifull)

When not feeling right, you are told your not trying hard enough. (they try too hard)

All fixes revolve around a judgemental system that makes you feel like even less of a person, belittled because you arent "doing the right thing". (which is b***s***)

People suffering depression need REAL answers and REAL help from professionals who are willing to stand up to the crap that religions such as this spout. We need to teach our children realistic expectations on life and behavior.

To me one of the most important things plagueing our society right now is a lack of teaching proper emotional coping techniques. This isn't just tied into Mormonism, this is what I've seen across the US.

I totally agree. This is why, when I worked in the senior library of a private girls school, I used to forbid the young girls from reading 'Cosmopolitan', 'Dolly', 'Just 17' and all the other trash which brainwashes them into these unrealistic and wrong expectations. It's just another form of control, without the religion. Well, without overt religious overtones, but the same mechanisms.

[_Mephitus]

Yes mak, i will swear to you by the blood of my own body that im not taking anything i said out of context or embelishing anything. As a man going through Mormonism in western washington, those where the kinds of things i was told regularly. Needless to say, it screwed me up for many years. Im admitedly still trying to get around some of the programing.

[_Fortigurn]

You're account is convincing because it shows.

[_Runtu]

I'm not aware of any GA ever telling anyone that sexual desire was ever dirty or sinful. Would you mind documenting this, please?

I'm with you here, mak, although I think some GAs believe(d) it was sort of a "necessary evil," as it were. I've always thought this quote from Packer was illustrative:

As you move into your teens, almost of a sudden a boy or a girl becomes something new and intensely interesting. You will notice the changing of form and feature in your own body and in others. You will experience the early whispering of physical desire.

It was necessary that this power of creation have at least two dimensions: one, it must be strong; and two, it must be more or less constant.

This power must be strong, for most men by nature seek adventure. Except for the compelling persuasion of these feelings, men would be reluctant to accept the responsibility of sustaining a home and a family.

Granted, this quote is from 1972, but I doubt Packer's views have changed much since then. But the idea that the sex drive is the compelling reason men stay with their families is just weird. In the same article, he talks about when the sex drive in animals is fleeting, animals don't have the same kind of family life that humans do. So, really, at best, it seems, the sex drive is an animal urge that God helpfully made constant so that we'd want to stay with our families.

But I do like this quote from an old Relief Society manual:

“Youth need to understand how to interpret these [normal feelings according to their divine purpose]. Young people can counteract worldly attitudes with this attitude: ‘This power of procreation is a spark of divinity within me. It is not part of my life now, but will be later. There is a proper time (marriage) for this spark of divinity to find expression with a proper person (my wife or husband).

I like the idea of sex as exercising the spark of divinity. Works for me.

I rarely find statistics that exciting, but I'm curious what the breakdown is of LDS/Non LDS, Active/Not Active, and stuff like that. In addition, I'm not aware of any doctrine that states that LDS folk will not be subject to affliction or temptation. If I recall correctly, it's quite the opposite. I've never (as far as I can recall) pointed to any kind of state or national statistic as a sign of anything, but for those that would like to draw conclusions from this, perhaps some more information would be helpful.

I've never though Utah's statistics were particularly exciting, either, in that I don't believe they tell us much about the church's effect on people. And you're right that, at least doctrinally, one would expect that affliction and temptation would come at least equally to Mormons. I just think it's funny that people tout statistics that they think make the church look good and discount those that put it in a less-favorable light. Human nature, I suppose.