The good that the church does

[_Jason Bourne]

I like what you're saying, cacheman, but can you point to specific instances of "the actions"? You say that "people are being helped," and that "money is being spend," but is it really? I have often heard TBMs discuss how great the Church's welfare system is, along with its various charitable divisions, but have yet to be shown any real evidence. Let's face it: mowing a lawn in the hopes of being able to pass out a Book of Mormon is a pretty lame form of "charity."

I am not "assuming" anything. I know this are the motivations based on teachings from within the Church.

Let me ask this in a more frank and direct way: Can anyone name a single, untainted act of charity that has ever been done by the Church?

I just gave you a few and there are millions. How about a bishop using FO funds to sustain a family when the husband had a brain tumor and could not work for 10 months? How about the bishop using FO funds to pay for a rental car to get a member to and from work when his car broke down and if he could nbot get to work the family would have been in dire straights. How about the Church spearhead units that are always one of the first responses in almost every natural disaster. The list goes on and on and on.

[_Mr. Coffee]

I just gave you a few and there are millions. How about a bishop using FO funds to sustain a family when the husband had a brain tumor and could not work for 10 months? How about the bishop using FO funds to pay for a rental car to get a member to and from work when his car broke down and if he could nbot get to work the family would have been in dire straights. How about the Church spearhead units that are always one of the first responses in almost every natural disaster. The list goes on and on and on.

I think he ment that you don't really see Mormons doing things for purely altruistic purposes, i.e. they might be helping people but they are doing so in the hopes of improving public perception of the church. Any time I've seen the local LDS church help people it was either them helping people who were already members or helping non-member as a means to try to convert them.

[_Mister Scratch]

I like what you're saying, cacheman, but can you point to specific instances of "the actions"? You say that "people are being helped," and that "money is being spend," but is it really? I have often heard TBMs discuss how great the Church's welfare system is, along with its various charitable divisions, but have yet to be shown any real evidence. Let's face it: mowing a lawn in the hopes of being able to pass out a Book of Mormon is a pretty lame form of "charity."

I am not "assuming" anything. I know this are the motivations based on teachings from within the Church.

Let me ask this in a more frank and direct way: Can anyone name a single, untainted act of charity that has ever been done by the Church?

1: Charitable works both locally and nationally, by the Church and members.

This might be a good place to start. Can you name any specific examples?

2: Emphasis on self reliance and work

Uh, "self reliance"? Scratch that one out!

3: Brings people to Christ. Note I do not want to debate theological isssues on this one.

Yes, clearly. So this one's out, too.

4: Local assistance through fast offering

Assistance to whom? Specific examples, please.

5: Gives people a vehicle to serve other. I believe a ward puts us in a situation where we serve and help others in a way most of us never would, especially if the ward has a mixed socio-economic status.

This is what I would call a "tainted" form of charity, since it really only serves the interests of the Church. Far too much of the Church's "charity" is given over to looking after other Mormons. "Taking care of your own" is not very charitable, in my opinion. This one's no good.

6: Encourages us to be good fathers and mothers.

Debatable, and It's unclear how this constitutes "selfless charity." (After all, your kids are your progeny.)

7: Following WoW can bring helath benefits

And thus it is self-serving.

I just gave you a few and there are millions. How about a bishop using FO funds to sustain a family when the husband had a brain tumor and could not work for 10 months? How about the bishop using FO funds to pay for a rental car to get a member to and from work when his car broke down and if he could nbot get to work the family would have been in dire straights.

Again, these good deed are tainted, charity-wise, by the fact that it was a case of the Church looking after its own.

How about the Church spearhead units that are always one of the first responses in almost every natural disaster. The list goes on and on and on.

Again, specific examples? I have heard only one specific example re: natural disasters, and that was the one provided by Kevin, which, as he pointed out, was used as a proselytizing opportunity. Hardly "selfless charity" if you ask me.

So: keep trying.

[_Jason Bourne]

I just gave you a few and there are millions. How about a bishop using FO funds to sustain a family when the husband had a brain tumor and could not work for 10 months? How about the bishop using FO funds to pay for a rental car to get a member to and from work when his car broke down and if he could nbot get to work the family would have been in dire straights. How about the Church spearhead units that are always one of the first responses in almost every natural disaster. The list goes on and on and on.

I think he ment that you don't really see Mormons doing things for purely altruistic purposes, I.e. they might be helping people but they are doing so in the hopes of improving public perception of the church. Any time I've seen the local LDS church help people it was either them helping people who were already members or helping non-member as a means to try to convert them.

I understand what he meant and I believe he and you are wrong. First I note that many members do things to just help people, both members and non members. And also, what is wrong with members helping members. They are part of a community and just because they are part of the community does not negate the charitable efforts. Certianly one of the benefits of being LDS is havein access to a network of fellow saints that will step in and assist.

Second, the Church in general still does things to help the community just to help. I have seen nad given numerous example. The cynical view the Mr. Scratch offers is there some but not in total.

[_moksha]

I just gave you a few and there are millions. How about a bishop using FO funds to sustain a family when the husband had a brain tumor and could not work for 10 months? How about the bishop using to funds to pay for a rental car to get a member to and from work when his car broke down and if he could not get to work the family would have been in dire straights.

Again, these good deed are tainted, charity-wise, by the fact that it was a case of the Church looking after its own.

Au contraire, even looking after their own is a valid act of charity. Are you trying to deny the Church helps those not of their faith?

[_dartagnan]

All these things certainly count as charity, no matter who the recipients are. It is just an observation that things are slightly different in an LDS context. It isn't exactly selfless charity as most people understand it because the primary motive behind the charity is often furthering the image of the Church or individual status. When we think of charity I think most usually think of giving money to some fund for disabled kids or to combat some kind of disease or to buy a lunch for some Somalian kid you'll never meet. Maybe buying some poor man a lunch without an audience looking in. Those are unquestionable instances of selfless charity because people in general do so with the expectation of divine reciprocation, as do Mormons. And Mormons will even come right out and say this too. If I thank someone for helping me move I might get, "Don't thank me, I need the blessings."

It is also interesting what is considered charity or "service" in the Church. A mission is considered service, but most missionaries I know go on missions because it is social suicide if they don't. One of my companions told me his Mom promised him a car if he went, otherwise he'd have to stay home and earn it himself.

Anyway...

[_Fortigurn]

I agree with moksha and dartagnan. I also believe that even if an act of charity is accompanied by Mormon teaching, it's clear to me that the act of charity is not motivated by the desire to evangelise, only that it is being used as an opportunity to do so. People are under no obligation to accept anything preached to them, and the church isn't gaining anything by being charitable.

[_Jason Bourne]

You are operating under the premise the charitable works that benefit the members are not true charitable . A better question is such a constraint reasonable? Most charity has some underlying self interest that motivates it. Do you disqualify the LDS member who visits a shut in that is a member of their ward as doing and act of sincere charity? Do you likewise discount the Catholic, Baptist or Muslim shoe does the same thing. How about foundation? DO you disqualify Bill Gates charitable acts through his foundation because tying his name to it brings recognition to Microsoft? Or the Lance Armstrong Foundation? Armstrong started it because he had cancer. But it also brings him more recognition as well. Do you discount that charitable act as well?

1: Charitable works both locally and nationally, by the Church and members.

This might be a good place to start. Can you name any specific examples?

The Church humanitarian center in SLC and the charity it does around the world is a good start.

In the early 80's when famine threatened to devastate Ethiopia the Church called for a special fast. This fast raised over $14.000,000 and used through Catholic Charities to provide food to those starving.

2: Emphasis on self reliance and work

Uh, "self reliance"? Scratch that one out!

This was in response to good that comes from the Church not specifically for charity issues.

3: Brings people to Christ. Note I do not want to debate theological issues on this one.

Yes, clearly. So this one's out, too.

Same as 2.

4: Local assistance through fast offering

Assistance to whom? Specific examples, please.

Bishops assist local members, at time non members, and transients in need of food, shelter, medical, etc. I provided some specific examples above in another post.

5: Gives people a vehicle to serve other. I believe a ward puts us in a situation where we serve and help others in a way most of us never would, especially if the ward has a mixed socio-economic status.

This is what I would call a "tainted" form of charity, since it really only serves the interests of the Church. Far too much of the Church's "charity" is given over to looking after other Mormons. "Taking care of your own" is not very charitable, in my opinion. This one's no good.

Certainly taking care of people is charitable and the fact that the person you help is a member of your own organization does not negate it at all. Members are asked to donate money to the fast offering fund. That money is used at the local ward level first to help those in need. Why is that not charitable?

6: Encourages us to be good fathers and mothers.

Debatable, and It's unclear how this constitutes "selfless charity." (After all, your kids are your progeny.)

Once again you misconstrue my original post as a response to your specific request about charity. Many of these points were my initial response as to what good comes from Mormonism.

7: Following WoW can bring helath benefits

And thus it is self-serving.

See above.

I just gave you a few and there are millions. How about a bishop using FO funds to sustain a family when the husband had a brain tumor and could not work for 10 months? How about the bishop using FO funds to pay for a rental car to get a member to and from work when his car broke down and if he could not get to work the family would have been in dire straights.

Again, these good deed are tainted, charity-wise, by the fact that it was a case of the Church looking after its own.

Almost no charitable cause would meet your restriction. SO let me ask you this? Do you give money to charity? If yes do you deduct that for tax purposes? Does the fact that you may get back 30% or so of what you give negate your charitable act because it was self serving for at least 30% of it?

How about the Church spearhead units that are always one of the first responses in almost every natural disaster. The list goes on and on and on.

Again, specific examples? I have heard only one specific example re: natural disasters, and that was the one provided by Kevin, which, as he pointed out, was used as a proselytizing opportunity. Hardly "selfless charity" if you ask me.

Katrina, Hurricanes in Central America, Hygiene kits and clothing from the humanitarian center, which also employees immigrants who cannot find work elsewhere and they do no have to be LDS responses to all sort of other disaster, assistance given to the earthquake victims in Pakistan, assistance given to the Tsunami victims a few years ago. You name a major disaster and the LDS Church is almost always there and giving resources.

So: keep trying.

I think I have done quite well thank you. Certianly the Church does do things around the world that do not give them any direct benefit other then name recognition. On top of that there are millions

[_Some Schmo]

I don't think there's any doubt that there is good that comes of the church. In fact, all events have both good and bad consequences, whether we notice them or not.

I think there are two far more important questions:

- does the good that comes as a result of the church's existence outweigh the bad?
- do people need the church in order to do good?

I'd answer no to both questions.

[_Jason Bourne]

I don't think there's any doubt that there is good that comes of the church. In fact, all events have both good and bad consequences, whether we notice them or not.

I think there are two far more important questions:

- does the good that comes as a result of the church's existence outweigh the bad?
- do people need the church in order to do good?

I'd answer no to both questions.

For one I would lke reasons and for two, how in the worlds can you or anyone know this? My wife, a concert, thinks the LDS Church is the best thing the ever happened to her and believes it saved her from a rather destructive path that she was on.