Gaz,
There is one more point I'd like to emphasize and I'm sorry for posting multiple posts here but that's typically how it works with me as I think of more I want to address. I know that all of these posts are largely directed at you but for right now at least, you're the only TBM who appears to have the courage to tackle some of this publicly here so yes, I know you're taking a hit for the team and I appreciate that you're willing.
If I am mistaken here, I want someone to correct me.
If the Book of Abraham is what Joseph Smith said it was, do you know what would happen?
The Evangelical community and the archaeological community would be all over it Gaz, for it would serve as the ONLY non-Biblical proof of Abraham in Egypt.
That, Gaz, would be something like the find of the century.
But it's not, Gaz.
Jersey Girl
Kevin Barney paper on Elkenah
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I'm still playing with this article and sure to catch it eventually from somewhere but...let's look at this part where Kerry begins his analysis of the word "Libnah". If my reasoning is wrong here, I'd like anyone to correct me.
Here, he places great emphasis on the name, where Robert Smith thinks it's derived from, it's root meaning, a Hebrew root "ibn" how it relates to other Hebrew terms, and then goes into symbolism, etc.
" Next we have Libnah, which name has actually turned up in Egyptian records, and been translated into Canaanite as "Libnah." Robert Smith notes that the name Libnah is derived from the Semitic and Indo-European root meaning "light," or "shining", and even "white." The Hebrew root lbn gives us Hebrew terms such as lebonah and olibanum which is Frankincense (Lev. 2:1 which was "white" of color according to Pliny HN, 12:14, Greek libanos, libanwtos, Arabic, lub'anun). This was also applied to a town name El Lubban. Labanah is the moon. Lebanon, of course strikes us immediately, because it is connected with the snow covered Antilibanus and Mount Hermon, and with the Valley of Lebanon, which appears in the Greek form Libanos and includes the entire Mountain Range.
Nibley further notes that Smith identified the jackal headed as Libnah, the correct designation for the WEST. And the Egyptians connected it with the white land, which is the meaning of the name! (Nibley, "Fac. No. 1 By the Figures," "IE", Sept. 1969).And Anubis, is the God of the West, the White land of the Westerners, and is associated with the moon! The Egyptologist Hermann Kees noted that the epithet, "Lord of the White Land" (nb ta djesr) is derived from the idea of "Lord of the shining, sanctified (prachtigen, geheiligten) Land. That is a euphism for the necropolis itself, which everyone knows is in the WEST. That would make him Lord of the Westerners! This is Kees conclusion. (Nibley, Sept. 1969, p. 144). The Egyptologist Brusch noted that the four canonical colors of Egypt always has WHITE as the color of the WEST. Also the Libyans to the WEST of Egypt were noted for their white skin and blue eyes. The facts of this Canopic Jar are:
1. Libnah does mean White Land
2. The idolatrous god of Libnah does have the mask of Anubis
3. The jackal-headed canopic figure does stand for the West
4. Anubis is the Lord of the West
5. Anubis is also Lord of the White land
6. White is the ritual color of the west.
Libnah, then, appears to be a very appropriate name to use if you want to divide up the world into four regions or races according to the Egyptian practice."
And here he does an about face as he attempts to explain the meaning for Mahmackrah. I'll bold the about face:
"The third canopic is most interesting! The apes headed Mahmackrah. What a weird name! However, that is not to discredit it, but to cause us to look closely at it. Critics all too often simply toss something off they don't understand. The crrect thing to do is look and read. The Egyptians always placed this ape or bulls head (sometimes they are interchangeable with canopic jars) in the north. When we are confronted with odd looking names in Joseph Smith's writings, it is to the SOUND of them that we call your attention to, not necessarily how they are spelled. For instance, Baurak El and Shaumahyeem are perfectly good Hebrew if you read them OUT LOUD, though they look simply outlandish. The names of the canopics are addressed to the EAR not to the eye. Mamackrah suggests all sorts of things to the ear, especially with syllables such as Mah, mack, and rah. These are full of meaning in any language."
Why is it that spelling and root words are important in the case of "Libnah" but not in the case of "Mahmackrah"? In the first example we are taught to focus on the spelling and meaning, in the next we are taught to abandon that in favor of how the words "sound". Here, I can't see where Kerry has established a sound principle with which to base his interpretations. There isn't a consistent method at work here.
One more thing that I don't understand is when he states:
"The Egyptians always placed this ape or bulls head (sometimes they are interchangeable with canopic jars) in the north. "
How can any of the jars be placed in the north (or any other compass point) when the jars in the illustration he's using are placed in a line?"
Here, he places great emphasis on the name, where Robert Smith thinks it's derived from, it's root meaning, a Hebrew root "ibn" how it relates to other Hebrew terms, and then goes into symbolism, etc.
" Next we have Libnah, which name has actually turned up in Egyptian records, and been translated into Canaanite as "Libnah." Robert Smith notes that the name Libnah is derived from the Semitic and Indo-European root meaning "light," or "shining", and even "white." The Hebrew root lbn gives us Hebrew terms such as lebonah and olibanum which is Frankincense (Lev. 2:1 which was "white" of color according to Pliny HN, 12:14, Greek libanos, libanwtos, Arabic, lub'anun). This was also applied to a town name El Lubban. Labanah is the moon. Lebanon, of course strikes us immediately, because it is connected with the snow covered Antilibanus and Mount Hermon, and with the Valley of Lebanon, which appears in the Greek form Libanos and includes the entire Mountain Range.
Nibley further notes that Smith identified the jackal headed as Libnah, the correct designation for the WEST. And the Egyptians connected it with the white land, which is the meaning of the name! (Nibley, "Fac. No. 1 By the Figures," "IE", Sept. 1969).And Anubis, is the God of the West, the White land of the Westerners, and is associated with the moon! The Egyptologist Hermann Kees noted that the epithet, "Lord of the White Land" (nb ta djesr) is derived from the idea of "Lord of the shining, sanctified (prachtigen, geheiligten) Land. That is a euphism for the necropolis itself, which everyone knows is in the WEST. That would make him Lord of the Westerners! This is Kees conclusion. (Nibley, Sept. 1969, p. 144). The Egyptologist Brusch noted that the four canonical colors of Egypt always has WHITE as the color of the WEST. Also the Libyans to the WEST of Egypt were noted for their white skin and blue eyes. The facts of this Canopic Jar are:
1. Libnah does mean White Land
2. The idolatrous god of Libnah does have the mask of Anubis
3. The jackal-headed canopic figure does stand for the West
4. Anubis is the Lord of the West
5. Anubis is also Lord of the White land
6. White is the ritual color of the west.
Libnah, then, appears to be a very appropriate name to use if you want to divide up the world into four regions or races according to the Egyptian practice."
And here he does an about face as he attempts to explain the meaning for Mahmackrah. I'll bold the about face:
"The third canopic is most interesting! The apes headed Mahmackrah. What a weird name! However, that is not to discredit it, but to cause us to look closely at it. Critics all too often simply toss something off they don't understand. The crrect thing to do is look and read. The Egyptians always placed this ape or bulls head (sometimes they are interchangeable with canopic jars) in the north. When we are confronted with odd looking names in Joseph Smith's writings, it is to the SOUND of them that we call your attention to, not necessarily how they are spelled. For instance, Baurak El and Shaumahyeem are perfectly good Hebrew if you read them OUT LOUD, though they look simply outlandish. The names of the canopics are addressed to the EAR not to the eye. Mamackrah suggests all sorts of things to the ear, especially with syllables such as Mah, mack, and rah. These are full of meaning in any language."
Why is it that spelling and root words are important in the case of "Libnah" but not in the case of "Mahmackrah"? In the first example we are taught to focus on the spelling and meaning, in the next we are taught to abandon that in favor of how the words "sound". Here, I can't see where Kerry has established a sound principle with which to base his interpretations. There isn't a consistent method at work here.
One more thing that I don't understand is when he states:
"The Egyptians always placed this ape or bulls head (sometimes they are interchangeable with canopic jars) in the north. "
How can any of the jars be placed in the north (or any other compass point) when the jars in the illustration he's using are placed in a line?"
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Chinese Proverb
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_Jersey Girl
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Some nice person sent me a copy of the Barney article in a PM. The person said they didn't want to post the article because it's copyrighted. Is there a reason I can't post it here so long as I make the proper attribution?
Anyone?
Jersey Girl
Anyone?
Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Chinese Proverb
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Jersey,
Sorry I have not replied, but I was away all weekend, and monday night I just made a post in the Celestial, then had to go to bed. I'll reply to your posts as soon as I can .
thanks
Gaz
Sorry I have not replied, but I was away all weekend, and monday night I just made a post in the Celestial, then had to go to bed. I'll reply to your posts as soon as I can .
thanks
Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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Jersey Girl quoting some crazy man wrote:"Mamackrah suggests all sorts of things to the ear, especially with syllables such as Mah, mack, and rah. These are full of meaning in any language."
What a bizarre statement. The syllables 'Mah', 'mack' and 'rah' are utterly meaningless in English. They're not even words (except perhaps for 'mack'). Many languages wouldn't even have these sounds.
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fortigurn wrote:Jersey Girl quoting some crazy man wrote:"Mamackrah suggests all sorts of things to the ear, especially with syllables such as Mah, mack, and rah. These are full of meaning in any language."
What a bizarre statement. The syllables 'Mah', 'mack' and 'rah' are utterly meaningless in English. They're not even words (except perhaps for 'mack'). Many languages wouldn't even have these sounds.
LOL at the quote. I think the Backyard Professor deserves a a spot in your signature...
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07