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_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Ray A wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:Zingers like that, Beastie, remind me of just how glad I am that you post on this board.


Apparently you're of limited intelligence too.


C'mon now, Ray. You've gotta admit that what she said was pretty darn funny, don't you?

By the way, Shades, when are you going to remove the offensive, defamatory, and lying comments from Rollo and "Mister Scratch" about Dan Peterson's stand on Michael Quinn?


Are they lying, or are they merely giving their opinions based on the information available to them?

Or are you going to allow defamation to stand in the name of "free speech".


You're beginning to sound like the MA&D moderators.

If I delete their "defamation," I'd also have to delete your "defamation." Do you really want me to go down that road?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Dr. Shades wrote:C'mon now, Ray. You've gotta admit that what she said was pretty darn funny, don't you?


I really don't give a damn. beastie is now engaging in "Noel" stereotypes. And Noel is about as intelligent as a rabbit.


Dr. Shades wrote:Are they lying, or are they merely giving their opinions based on the information available to them?


What "information" is available to them? Information from Dr. Peterson, whom they choose to ignore because if they paid attention to Dan's views it would spoil their Peterson-bashing?! That's right, Shades, promote your propaganda at the expense of truth.

Dr. Shades wrote:You're beginning to sound like the MA&D moderators.

If I delete their "defamation," I'd also have to delete your "defamation." Do you really want me to go down that road?


If you promise to delete all of the vile innuendo and outright LIES about Dan Peterson, then you have my explicit permission to delete anything I have written which you consider to be false. Be my guest.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Ray A wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:C'mon now, Ray. You've gotta admit that what she said was pretty darn funny, don't you?


I really don't give a damn. beastie is now engaging in "Noel" stereotypes. And Noel is about as intelligent as a rabbit.


Dr. Shades wrote:Are they lying, or are they merely giving their opinions based on the information available to them?


What "information" is available to them? Information from Dr. Peterson, whom they choose to ignore because if they paid attention to Dan's views it would spoil their Peterson-bashing?! That's right, Shades, promote your propaganda at the expense of truth.

Dr. Shades wrote:You're beginning to sound like the MA&D moderators.

If I delete their "defamation," I'd also have to delete your "defamation." Do you really want me to go down that road?


If you promise to delete all of the vile innuendo and outright LIES about Dan Peterson, then you have my explicit permission to delete anything I have written which you consider to be false. Be my guest.


If you want deletions and censorship because someone posted something you don't agree with, go to MAD. If you want one side of the story and one side only, go to MAD. If you want to run complaining to the mods about what you perceive as vile (which isn't necessarily the truth, but is only your perception), go to MAD.

Scratch and Rollo stated their case against Dan. If he wanted to refute what they said, he's free to come and post here. You have nothing to add to that discussion, because you're an outsider, just like all the rest of us (who aren't clamoring for censorship and mod action).
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Ray A wrote:The least you could do is leave Mormons alone. But you have this gut-wrenching addiction to proving them wrong.


May I ask why this is the least one could do? What standard are you invoking? From whence comes the moral or other obligation to leave Mormons alone? You're asserting a principle that derives from . . . what?

From what I’ve seen they are in fact leaving Mormons alone. The Mormons they interact with on these boards participate willingly knowing the ground rules. I don’t see many of posters here going out of their way in the day-to-day life hassling Mormons. In fact, many of them do quite the opposite; go out of their way to be polite and deferential to believing family, friends, and acquaintances. (That’s certainly true of me.)

Could one not turn the tables on the Mormon faithful--who feel compelled to send out missionaries by the tens of thousands and who would, if they could, convert the entire world to their way of thinking--thusly:

"The least you could do is to leave non-Mormons alone. But you have this gut-wrenching addiction to proving them wrong."

There is a material difference between debating on discussion boards with other willing participants (note, the believers who participate consent to "being proved wrong," nobody is imposing anything on them) and aggressively proselytizing non-believers who have not consented to be proselytized.

I think also Ray that you're too smart (from what I've seen) to actually believe in the gross caricature of ex-Mo's that you've painted. Unless you say to the contrary, I'll interpret it as a case of hyperbole intentionally overstated to make a point, or made out of frustration or anger.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Ray,

From where I sit, it appears to me that your emotions dictate to your reason. You told me, not too long ago, that DCP treated you "coolly" when you began to be more critical of LDS, and that you were rethinking your defensive stance in favor of LDS. Now when I criticize your extreme "nazi" hyperbole, you have switched positions. Now, apparently, I'm a full fledged fundamentalist apostate, eager to destroy the church, a la Juliann's theories, no doubt. It doesn't matter that you saw, with your own eyes, how she manipulated research to develop her theory, now you're a fan.

You hypocritically yell about defamation while repeatedly attacking someone who isn't here to defend himself, nor has been around, as far as I know, for a long time - Noel. You and DCP, both hypocrites, fuming with self righteous indignation over the attacks of exmormons on believers, while completely oblivious to your own attacks, to say nothing of the institutionalized bigotry that exists in LDS teachings, which you not only do not deny exists, but insist is such a fundamental part of Mormonism that it will never change.

For someone that is surrounded by the evil low-lifes you maintain surround you, you sure have a thin skin, as well as little perspective.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie,

Just remember you're the one who wanted to probe and question me with your initial thread. You wanted answers, and you're getting them. For some reason you feel this irresistible urge to hound me like a prosecuting attorney.

Of course I said I was rethinking being too apologetic, after I visited Jean Borde's site, which in my opinion is too fundamentalist, and it turned me off. You know that because I told you, and also some LDS friends by email, including DCP if I recall correctly. Now that you're getting into private conversations shows you're getting desperate. Since you're doing this I will reveal what I wrote to DCP after I visited Borde's site, and also explained to him in detail what my views were. After explaining my positions on a range of issues, I wrote this:

I would hope that my views will not divide us, but that will depend a lot on yourself. I have no problem with you as a person, but you may have a big problem with my views. I hope that will not be the case.


DCP responded that he had no problem with me. The "cooling off" was entirely my imagination. (I do not quote verbatim emails from people unless I have their permission, and if I do it will be a rare exception.)

beastie wrote:Now, apparently, I'm a full fledged fundamentalist apostate, eager to destroy the church, a la Juliann's theories, no doubt. It doesn't matter that you saw, with your own eyes, how she manipulated research to develop her theory, now you're a fan.


Because I differed with Juliann's views when we debated in the Pundit's forum does not mean that I differed with her views in most other areas. In fact, I am inclined to agree with most of her views. But I did not agree with the definitions of post-modernism either, especially the ones posted by Ben.

beastie wrote:You hypocritically yell about defamation while repeatedly attacking someone who isn't here to defend himself, nor has been around, as far as I know, for a long time - Noel.


Maybe you should check the Telestial forum. At the same time you started the "? for Ray A" thread, Noel started this thread:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=1510

But apparently you don't read threads in the Telestial forum, and you didn't post on that thread. Noel was also on MAD during the current thread on apostates but said nothing. I am not attacking Noel behind his back, so get that straight. We have a long history of tensions going back to not long after the time when he often rang me to talk (because he may have felt I was on "his side", but he later learned this was not the case, and never was), and when I later went on FAIR and posted favourably on LDS issues this apparently soured him, and he started constantly nit-picking at me.

In regard to my views of people, I have often revised my opinions. For example, Kevin Graham and myself had vicious exchanges on the old MDB, and on his forum, and called one another some vile things. We eventually managed to agree that he was kicked off MAD because of a mix up, but it took me a long time to see his viewpoint properly, and to really understand the situation. In this way, I'm prepared to revise my opinions about people, and I personally apologised to Kevin for misunderstanding him on this issue. As far as I am concerned, that issue is now in the past. I leave Kevin to sort out his own feelings, beliefs, and viewpoints, and I don't harrass him. I went through exactly what he did when I first left the Church. He has also changed many of his viewpoints, and gone from a staunch defender to being critical of many things he once supported. There is nothing wrong with this, as people do change opinions. You changed your own opinion about RFM, and wrote me conceding that I was right about it all along! In fact, you said it was going to be your "swan song" for RFM and you weren't going to post there anymore, yet you're attacking me for changing my opinions.

But you, beastie, seem to feel some "urge" to run with this ball. I stated my views, over and over, with detailed explanations, yet even Scratch writes in his blog:

his posts have devolved into a series of virtually insane doom-and-gloom declarations about the imminent holocaust that awaits TBMs.


Although I clarified a thousand times this was NOT my position. However, I can live with misrepresentation, and I have given up clarifying myself, to both of you. (The photo of Mark Jackson was funny, though.) When YOU make generalisations about what I say, then I give back generalisations because it's useless trying to clarify anything to you anymore. I did this over and over on the thread you started, and you kept misrepresenting what I said, and you were the one blowing it out of all proportion.

What I recommend is that you do your "swan song" with RFM, as you said you would, but I fear that minor eye-opening on your part was, unfortunately, only transitory. And I still believe I am right about the place.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Just remember you're the one who wanted to probe and question me with your initial thread. You wanted answers, and you're getting them. For some reason you feel this irresistible urge to hound me like a prosecuting attorney.


Hound you? You said you were done with this board. I didn't ask for any clarification from you. I was commenting on the post of Renegade, because I agreed with him. I was following the thread, and saw you repeating the same type of hyperbole you did here, so I commented on it. I wasn't inviting your response. You had clearly stated you had abandoned this board. Obviously you haven't, and just like some other MAD people, you follow it despite believing it to be a cesspool.

DCP responded that he had no problem with me. The "cooling off" was entirely my imagination. (I do not quote verbatim emails from people unless I have their permission, and if I do it will be a rare exception.)


Well, that explains why you're being more defensive in his behalf. This is just more evidence of what I suspected. Your emotions lead your reasoning.

Because I differed with Juliann's views when we debated in the Pundit's forum does not mean that I differed with her views in most other areas. In fact, I am inclined to agree with most of her views. But I did not agree with the definitions of post-modernism either, especially the ones posted by Ben.


Whether or not you agree with her other views isn't pertinent. What is pertinent is that despite having serious disagreements about how Juliann was constructing her theory, because you are now MAD at me, you now are eager to use her ideas. Or did you not mean me to notice you bolded the word apostate and accuse me of wanting to "destroy" the church?

But apparently you don't read threads in the Telestial forum, and you didn't post on that thread. Noel was also on MAD during the current thread on apostates but said nothing. I am not attacking Noel behind his back, so get that straight. We have a long history of tensions going back to not long after the time when he often rang me to talk (because he may have felt I was on "his side", but he later learned this was not the case, and never was), and when I later went on FAIR and posted favourably on LDS issues this apparently soured him, and he started constantly nit-picking at me.


No, I don't follow threads in the telestial forum.

So you're not defaming Noel behind his back, just repeatedly using him as your whipping boy in front of him. This is supposed to make a difference in my assessment of your hypocrisy?



But you, beastie, seem to feel some "urge" to run with this ball. I stated my views, over and over, with detailed explanations, yet even Scratch writes in his blog:


Oh, I understand that you're not "really" accusing RFMers of being Nazis, just of being the "Luthers" who write create hate and bigotry which lets the real "Nazis" justify exterminating millions of human beings.

Is that better?

The reason I feel the "urge" to run with this ball now is because you returned to participate on this thread. You have engaged in the very behavior you accuse others of engaging in, and your hyperbole is ridiculous and insulting to the real victims of genocide. But we've already been over this. If you don't want people to run with this "ball", then stop throwing it.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:Hound you? You said you were done with this board. I didn't ask for any clarification from you. I was commenting on the post of Renegade, because I agreed with him. I was following the thread, and saw you repeating the same type of hyperbole you did here, so I commented on it. I wasn't inviting your response. You had clearly stated you had abandoned this board. Obviously you haven't, and just like some other MAD people, you follow it despite believing it to be a cesspool.


I am not participating in any threads except those where I'm being stabbed in the back. It is Dan's and Juliann's choice not to post here, even though they are being criticised. But if you continue to run with this ball, I will reply to you.

beastie wrote:Well, that explains why you're being more defensive in his behalf. This is just more evidence of what I suspected. Your emotions lead your reasoning.


I believe it is a good thing to listen to one's intuition. It is my intuitions which influence me. Sometimes I'm wrong, but most of the time they serve me well. Quite often I will "sense" something about my children, for example, and nine out of ten times I am right. I don't want to be like you - following pure hard logic and ignoring your emotions and intuition. Now the Book of Mormon, for you, was all "in the brain". In this regard we are very different.


beastie wrote:Whether or not you agree with her other views isn't pertinent. What is pertinent is that despite having serious disagreements about how Juliann was constructing her theory, because you are now MAD at me, you now are eager to use her ideas. Or did you not mean me to notice you bolded the word apostate and accuse me of wanting to "destroy" the church?


You've contradicted yourself here too. In one thread, in fact on the same page, you said you have "no intention" of bothering the Church, then a few posts later you were calling for change. You want change, you want the bigotry to stop, and you are a crusader for change in that regard.

If you drop your generalisations about my views, and actually read, and understand, what I said on your thread about me, then I will drop my generalisations.

beastie wrote:No, I don't follow threads in the telestial forum.

So you're not defaming Noel behind his back, just repeatedly using him as your whipping boy in front of him. This is supposed to make a difference in my assessment of your hypocrisy?


Noel has frequently taken digs at me, especially on FAIR, and then later on MAD. You don't know our history of contention, and it goes back a long way. The "hypocrisy" stems from your ignorance of our disputes. You didn't even see his thread here, so how would you know anything about our long time tensions?


beastie wrote:Oh, I understand that you're not "really" accusing RFMers of being Nazis, just of being the "Luthers" who write create hate and bigotry which lets the real "Nazis" justify exterminating millions of human beings.

Is that better?


No, it's not better at all, and it seems that you are the one now concluding "facts" through your emotions.

beastie wrote:The reason I feel the "urge" to run with this ball now is because you returned to participate on this thread. You have engaged in the very behavior you accuse others of engaging in, and your hyperbole is ridiculous and insulting to the real victims of genocide. But we've already been over this. If you don't want people to pay attention to the "ball" you keep playing, then stop throwing it.


I had been gone a very short time when you couldn't resist launching salvos at me. Your comments were sarcastic and no worse than anything I've said about Noel.
_beastie
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

I am not participating in any threads except those where I'm being stabbed in the back. It is Dan's and Juliann's choice not to post here, even though they are being criticised. But if you continue to run with this ball, I will reply to you.


I will keep that in mind. The cesspool must not be all that bad after all, eh?

I believe it is a good thing to listen to one's intuition. It is my intuitions which influence me. Sometimes I'm wrong, but most of the time they serve me well. Quite often I will "sense" something about my children, for example, and nine out of ten times I am right. I don't want to be like you - following pure hard logic and ignoring your emotions and intuition. Now the Book of Mormon, for you, was all "in the brain". In this regard we are very different.


Well, this is a typical strategy. You're following the lead of apologists who pretend that critics who state that feelings are not an adequate basis for making judgments concerning the validity of certain truth claims, such as "was there once a group of Judeo Christians living in ancient Mesoamerica?" are really saying that feelings are worthless in general.

There's nothing wrong with intuition or feelings. You have created a strawman. I said that you change your reasoning in response to your feelings about the individuals making the arguments. If they've hurt your feelings, you switch sides. That isn't intuition.

You've contradicted yourself here too. In one thread, in fact on the same page, you said you have "no intention" of bothering the Church, then a few posts later you were calling for change. You want change, you want the bigotry to stop, and you are a crusader for change in that regard.


I explained myself in that thread. But aside from that, it's interesting that you seem to equate calling for bigotry to stop with "destroying" the church. No, it's not interesting, I take that back. It's bizarre.


If you drop your generalisations about my views, and actually read, and understand, what I said on your thread about me, then I will drop my generalisations.


I quoted your exact statements from the thread, Ray, I didn't paraphrase or generalize.

And no, as long as you keep making these sort of statements and then accuse exmormons of engaging in vile hate speech, if I happen to be around reading the thread, I will continue to comment on your hypocrisy. It's easy to spot your hypocrisy in this regard by altering your own words, which I did on this thread. If an exmormon had said this:

An angry mo is a restless and disgruntled soul who can't find rest. Like a barnacle that attaches to a boat it wants to sink because it's jealous the boat is sailing with full strength while its own anchor keeps it tied to the ocean floor, sinking deeper and deeper. Is there any more pathetic a sight then one who seeks to destroy those who left their faith, all the while trying to convince others to leave their own faiths for Mormonism? They bite the hand that was once its brother. Like traitors sucking on blood, they lust after any blood left in those who no longer believe.


You'd be using it as an example of vile hate speech that will engender future violence.

Noel has frequently taken digs at me, especially on FAIR, and then later on MAD. You don't know our history of contention, and it goes back a long way. The "hypocrisy" stems from your ignorance of our disputes. You didn't even see his thread here, so how would you know anything about our long time tensions?


Jeez, Ray. Wake up. The exmormons taking digs at Mormons are doing it because of their own history of contention with those people. Are you ignorant of those disputes? Some of them have been discussed quite a bit on this board. You have no idea what kind of history exmormons have with the apologists they now "dig", do you? Do you see how Juliann treated Maggie Mormon on MAD? She has established that sort of history many times over. I haven't had as many interactions with DCP to make the same statement, but I would imagine it's true. Do you really think that the snide, dismissive, often outright rude behavior of "notable" apologists towards critics and even wavering believers like Maggie doesn't have consequences?

This is just like the thread where I demonstrated the institutionalized bigotry of the LDS church and explain how this begins the cycle. You more or less shrug your shoulders and insist it will never change and then hypocritically focus only on one side of the cycle.

No, it's not better at all, and it seems that you are the one now concluding "facts" through your emotions.


For heaven's sake, Ray, was someone else posting under your screen name? You repeatedly compared exmormons to Luther.


I had been gone a very short time when you couldn't resist launching salvos at me. Your comments were sarcastic and no worse than anything I've said about Noel.


And which one of us is demanding that Shades not let the defamation stand? Which one of us is acting like this sort of rhetoric will result in actual acts of violence?

The difference between us, Ray, is not that I behave and you don't. The difference is that I am able to put these sort of interactions in perspective, and don't go off on rants about how Mormons are going to encourage acts of violence against apostates because we're minions of satan.

I was viciously attacked by believers on ARM, back when I first went there. One even said I was a mentally ill liar for saying that, as a Mormon believer, I had read and believed that Heavenly Father had physical relations with Mary to conceive Jesus. That's why I stopped participating there. The level of hyperbole was ridiculous, the ratio of signal to noise far too low to make it worthwhile. But I have never blown it out of proportion and pretended the way I was treated on ARM by believers, and on RFM by some exmormons, is a sign that Mormons are inciting hatred against apostates which will eventually end in mass acts of violence against us.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote: You have created a strawman. I said that you change your reasoning in response to your feelings about the individuals making the arguments. If they've hurt your feelings, you switch sides. That isn't intuition.


Now let's see your argument in perspective. Why have you suddenly turned and attacked me for my opinions? Did I hurt your feelings? Feelings don't matter? Why your campaign to remove bigotry? Someone hurt your feelings? Your whole argument is about - feelings! You are protecting the feelings of exmos. We must pay attention to the feelings of exmos. Why did Scratch start his blog and his constant criticisms of MAD - his feelings were hurt. Dr. Lawrence Foster had an interesting theory about the Tanners, that their anti-Mormonism stemmed from ostracism by Mormons. So feelings DO matter. I do not switch allegiances because of my feelings all the time. Sometimes I do. If I am attacked by someone my feelings for them will change, isn't that natural? Human? When have I switched allegiances about my stand on the Book of Mormon? I was offended by some radical TBMs on LDS Internet in 2000, through to 2002, and my feelings about the Book of Mormon did not change. On RFM my feelings about the Book of Mormon did not change, and that, in fact, is what got me excommunicated from there. I had some real problems with the Church, which I expressed there, but I did not turn on the Book of Mormon because of that. If I had gone only on feelings I would have disowned the Book of Mormon as well, out of spite. I had some strong exchanges on FAIR with Mormons, and some strong disagreements - but my feelings about Mormons in general did not change! If the whole of MAD were to turn on me, my feelings about the Book of Mormon will not change.

In another thread you mentioned about the Witnesses being called vile names, like "dumbass" etc. They ALL stood by their belief in the Book of Mormon. Two of them returned to the Church, and Whitmer said that he didn't leave the Church, but the Church left him. They turned on Joseph Smith temporarily, probably because their feelings were hurt for offering criticisms, but they never denied what they saw. I am gulity as charged of being human, and having feelings, but I do not switch my basic allegiances only because of feelings. And my basic allegiance has been to Mormons. Your allegiance has been to exmos. If Dan Peterson sent me an email disowning me, do you think I will turn around and deny the Book of Mormon? If you do, you have another think coming.

I have housework to do, and will reply to the rest of your post later.
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