The Dude's Philosophy

[_Dan Vogel]

Your revolution is over, Mr. Dude. Condolences. The Apostates lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a revelation, sir. The Apostates will always lose. Do you hear me, DUDE?

The Apostates will always lose!

Lose what?

[_Sethbag]

Dan, and others confused by that quote - It's a quote from the movie "The Big Lebowski" with slight modification, and if you haven't seen the movie, it wouldn't work to just explain it.

[_Dan Vogel]

Have to render kudos where kudos are due, even if it makes me look like I'm fawning.

I thought this post of The Dude's on MAD's thread about angry exmormons was very insightful:

No, that's not it. They aren't embarrassed, they aren't trying to "convince" themselves that they did the right thing. Ex-Mormons just want to re-live the thrill of victory over a false and oppressive world view (in their opinion). Unlike others who doubt but stay in the church, the ex-mormons had the balls to say "the emperor has no clothes!" and let the chips fall where they may. It's stimulating to explore that break-out moment again and again, and it's fulfilling to help others do the same whenever possible. That's what motivates vocal ex-mormons.

It's the same as what motivates a new Mormon convert to share the gospel with his friends and family. Does it sound right to say the new Mormon is motivated to speak up by "self-loathing" or "embarrassment by the former non-LDS self" or "convincing themselves that they did the right thing" or "to prove to themselves that they were smart in joining?" Not really. It's nuts to psychoanalyze a vocal convert in this way. And the same goes for psychoanalyzing a vocal de-convert. They are motivated by the chance to re-live the "big moment" and help others do the same. It just feels good in an egotistical sort of way.

For the record, I have no "big moment" to relive. It was a gradual realization, and not a particularly happy one either. I wanted to believe Mormonism was true, but gradually I came to believe it wasn't. I was both sad and relieved, but not angry. I learned a lot from it, but I outgrew it. There are many reasons I continue to study its history and post on the internet, but reliving my deconversion isn't one of them. And I could care less about deconverting someone. I believe the clash of ideas is a good thing in and of itself. If I were to debate a Republican, it would not be with the intent of converting them to the Democrat Party. It would be to provide balance and influence voters, particularly the undecided. I don't think it's right to either retain members or convert new ones by withholding information or telling only one side of the story. If someone wants to join the Mormon church, so be it; but they should at least make an informed decision--and that can't be done without the critics.

[_William Schryver]

For the record, I have no "big moment" to relive. It was a gradual realization, and not a particularly happy one either. I wanted to believe Mormonism was true, but gradually I came to believe it wasn't. I was both sad and relieved, but not angry. I learned a lot from it, but I outgrew it. There are many reasons I continue to study its history and post on the internet, but reliving my deconversion isn't one of them. And I could care less about deconverting someone. I believe the clash of ideas is a good thing in and of itself. If I were to debate a Republican, it would not be with the intent of converting them to the Democrat Party. It would be to provide balance and influence voters, particularly the undecided. I don't think it's right to either retain members or convert new ones by withholding information or telling only one side of the story. If someone wants to join the Mormon church, so be it; but they should at least make an informed decision--and that can't be done without the critics.

Sure, Dan.

Look, we know how you just love to soft-pedal your evangelism. But The Dude has convinced me that his take on the matter is almost universally applicable. You’re absolutely an evangelist for the cause. Much more so than most. You have just adopted the tactical approach of pretended disinterest – or rather you deflect attention by assuring everyone that your interest is purely intellectual; purely scholarly.

Whatever. I think it’s hilarious. It’s the height of irony, in a way. You and Brent and Talibachman and The Dude and all the rest have just exchanged one name badge for another. ”We are all enlisted ‘til the conflict is o’er …”

[_Who Knows]

I think it’s hilarious. It’s the height of irony, in a way. You and Brent and Talibachman and The Dude and all the rest have just exchanged one name badge for another. ”We are all enlisted ‘til the conflict is o’er …”

How would that be ironic?

[_The Dude]

For the record, I have no "big moment" to relive. It was a gradual realization, and not a particularly happy one either. I wanted to believe Mormonism was true, but gradually I came to believe it wasn't. I was both sad and relieved, but not angry. I learned a lot from it, but I outgrew it. There are many reasons I continue to study its history and post on the internet, but reliving my deconversion isn't one of them. And I could care less about deconverting someone. I believe the clash of ideas is a good thing in and of itself....

Oh, that's not fair Dan! You either have to take my philosophy or else stick with the ones I was responding too in Ray's MAD thread:

It is a form of self loathing transferred to the church in order to handle the intensity of the pain.

I think ex-Mormons come to be embarrassed by the former self who valued the Church. Only by abusing the Church do they convince themselves that they need not feel ashamed. They must prove to themselves that they are smart in leaving, and that although they were dumb for being there, at least they, unlike others, were smart enough to get out. Neither position has anything to do with being dumb or smart in reality. This is simply one way of dealing with a painful transition in more easily graspable terms.

You can't just express your own thoughts and experiences. You must choose between a couple of defined options, and obviously mine is the better. Right?

;)

[_Dan Vogel]

Sure, Dan.

Look, we know how you just love to soft-pedal your evangelism. But The Dude has convinced me that his take on the matter is almost universally applicable. You’re absolutely an evangelist for the cause. Much more so than most. You have just adopted the tactical approach of pretended disinterest – or rather you deflect attention by assuring everyone that your interest is purely intellectual; purely scholarly.

Whatever. I think it’s hilarious. It’s the height of irony, in a way. You and Brent and Talibachman and The Dude and all the rest have just exchanged one name badge for another. ”We are all enlisted ‘til the conflict is o’er …”

Either your mind reading powers have failed you ... again ... or you are projecting ... again!

[_Dan Vogel]

For the record, I have no "big moment" to relive. It was a gradual realization, and not a particularly happy one either. I wanted to believe Mormonism was true, but gradually I came to believe it wasn't. I was both sad and relieved, but not angry. I learned a lot from it, but I outgrew it. There are many reasons I continue to study its history and post on the internet, but reliving my deconversion isn't one of them. And I could care less about deconverting someone. I believe the clash of ideas is a good thing in and of itself....

Oh, that's not fair Dan! You either have to take my philosophy or else stick with the ones I was responding too in Ray's MAD thread:

It is a form of self loathing transferred to the church in order to handle the intensity of the pain.

I think ex-Mormons come to be embarrassed by the former self who valued the Church. Only by abusing the Church do they convince themselves that they need not feel ashamed. They must prove to themselves that they are smart in leaving, and that although they were dumb for being there, at least they, unlike others, were smart enough to get out. Neither position has anything to do with being dumb or smart in reality. This is simply one way of dealing with a painful transition in more easily graspable terms.

You can't just express your own thoughts and experiences. You must choose between a couple of defined options, and obviously mine is the better. Right?

;)

Even as a Mormon I was not a good conformist. Sorry!

[_mocnarf]

To be a TBM Mormon is to be a conformist. Non-conformists by nature
will eventually leave the church (or at least become inactive).

[_Dan Vogel]

To be a TBM Mormon is to be a conformist. Non-conformists by nature
will eventually leave the church (or at least become inactive).

De-evolution and survival of the unfittest at work.