The Yarn Spinners

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_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Tal Bachman wrote:Doc

Ben Franklin flew his kite in a storm in June of 1752. The key attached to the line helped charge a Leyden jar. In fact, it was this (real) experiment which helped get him elected to The Royal Society.

You might like Walter Isaacson's bio of Franklin. Here's a link: [link removed by the Steuss]


Hi Tal,
I'm not quite so certain...

Bolt of Fate: Benjamin Franklin and His Electric Kite Hoax

Or for a modern-media-pseudo-scholarly approach; watch MythBusters episode #48.


Side note:
I just noticed that in my above quote, I wasn’t completely clear. I should have also included “lightning” in the list of items for the BF “story.”
Last edited by Reflexzero on Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

asbestosman wrote:[...]
Dang, Steuss has me beat for the explanation again. The guy's got the looks, brains, humor and basically everything.

Ah shucks... praise from Caesar. I don't have everything though. I seem to be missing pants.

Also, if you think I’ve got looks, brains, and humor; I must echo the words of Zatara (Edmond Dantes) after Vampa says that Yacapo is the greatest knife fighter he’s ever seen:

“Perhaps you should get more.”
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_KimberlyAnn
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Post by _KimberlyAnn »

Tal Bachman wrote:Yo doctor

This was what my post was supposed to be about:

1.) The power of story, or myth, to envelope and capture us, to shape our consciousnesses, and therefore shape how we feel, what we perceive, how we decide, how we live, how and who we love, etc. It seems sometimes that we give ourselves over more to stories we like, than to stories which there are good reasons to believe true. That doesn't always seem like a good thing. We sometimes wind up totally blind to reality, or ignoring the very best information available for the sake of believing in something which has no more reason to be thought likely than the existence of fire-breathing dragons. Like my old home teacher said to me last week when I bumped into him, "you think two plus two don't equal seven; but what if there is an extra 'three' floating around somewhere, that we just don't know about yet?".


The Mormon myth did, at one time, envelop me, though I don't believe it ever put me in an envelope. Oh, I suppose it's possible that it happened and I've repressed the memory, which could now be lurking around in the dark recesses of my mind back there with my penis envy. I'd better get to a repressed memory specialist and find out!

KA
_Tal Bachman
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Post by _Tal Bachman »

ALITD:

What is your basis for this claim? Because my knowledge of feminist writing suggests this is laughably false. Trivally, you aren't going to find to many feminists who explain the fact that men have penises and women have vaginas in terms of environment rather than heritablity. I'm afraid I'm going to have to call for evidence.


Sigh...uh, where would you like me to begin? One thing I should say is - no, penises and vaginas were never claimed as "social constructs" (brilliant, old chap). They were considered a brute physiological fact. But what many modern feminist thinkers did was acknowledge that as a brute fact, but then go on to claim that everything, or nearly everything else, built on top of that, in terms of feminity and masculinity, was the result of culture/"society" (outside influences).

By the way, what are you going to ask me for next - proof that Joseph Smith was an unreliable source of information about himself?

Here's Wikipedia on "gender" for starters:

"Although "gender" is commonly used interchangeably with "sex," within the academic fields of cultural studies, gender studies and the social sciences in general, the term "gender" often refers to purely social rather than biological differences. Some even view gender as a social construction rather than a biological phenomenon." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

Here's another one:

"To be born a man or a woman in any society is more than a simple biological fact. It is a biological fact with social implications. Women constitute a distinct social group, and the character of that group, long neglected by historians, has nothing to do with feminine "nature." "Gender" is the term now widely used to refer to those ways in which a culture reformulates what begins as a fact of nature. The biological sexes are redefined, represented, valued, and channeled into different roles in various culturally dependent ways. An American anthropologist has put it well: a "Sex/gender system [is] a set of arrangements by which a society transforms biological sexuality in to products of human activity, and in which there transformed sexual needs are met. Woman" is a creation of the masculine gaze." http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/a ... ender.html

But guess what, ALITD? You can run Google searches just like I can - so why am I doing it for you? You can also read just like I can. Since you seem never to have heard of the common feminist assertion that masculinity and feminity are social constructs, perhaps you should wade into some feminist lit yourself. (You seem to have read as much of this as you have Francis Bacon [see below]).

(No, dear - sex is real, and "gender" is largely a figment of your imagination.)
Got to love the sexist condescension in this post. Gender is a social construct in the same sense race is. It refers to a series of social expectations for what behaviors and roles fulfill a given gender type.


---Yes, Light. This is a feature of English called "sarcasm". You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Also, if you actually think that masculinity and feminity - and race/ethnicity - are mere "social constructs", I guess I would have to say that you're either one of the ideologues I mentioned, or at least, have accepted secular ideological pieties with the same lack of discrimination as you have the religious ideological pieties you seem partial to. (By the way, I guess propensities for sickle cell anemia and myopia are also "social constructs", right?)

Given that Newton spent more time trying to unlock Biblical prophecy than he did working out physics, this is an interesting claim. Oh well. Bacon has a lovely quote that is all too apt for you Tal:
"It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion."


---I'm not an atheist, you twit. (By the way, I have to wonder if you've ever read anything else by Francis Bacon other than his snappy little quote here...).

Re: Newton's religious faith, I would say that as many hours as he spent trying to "unlock Biblical prophecy", were largely wasted - just as would hours be trying to figure out the Nicene Creed, whether Bob Marley was the reincarnation of Joseph in Egypt, the wonder that is Rev. Moon, or where the lost city of "Zarahemla" is. But that doesn't mitigate the fact that modern physics stands on the shoulders of Isaac Newton, does it? Pious man or not, Newton's insights helped provide a basis on which the rational faculties of man have been liberated, so that they can now see what Newton could not.

Doesn't that make sense to you?
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

Tal Bachman wrote:
But guess what, ALITD? You can run Google searches just like I can - so why am I doing it for you? You can also read just like I can. Since you seem never to have heard of the common feminist assertion that masculinity and feminity are social constructs, perhaps you should wade into some feminist lit yourself. (You seem to have read as much of this as you have Francis Bacon [see below]).


They are social constructs. The difference between gender and sex is similar to t he difference between race and ethnicity. One is a description of of genetic makeup, and the other is a description of social boundaries and expectations. "Black" isn't a description of a similar set of genotypes and "feminine" isn't a description of being XX or having a vagina. I don't disagree with this. You, for reasons that are unclear and in total opposition to the academic community at large, do. What you don't understand is that when those same people talk about differences between men and women being explained in terms of social factors, they aren't saying that of all differences, hence why I can bring up trivial examples. If you want another, few people are arguing that men are often stronger than women because of social differences. This claim is more narrowly made about specific observable differences in gender roles in a society. They are saying those differences are largely explainable in terms of environmental/social differences rather than differences in having an X or Y chromosome. This, mind you, is not some open question that remains to be studied. There is plenty of research on the subject that confirms this to be the case. To pick an example I used before, that's why you can observe a situation where women went from being a tiny % of Ph.D's to now significantly outstripping men in new PH.D's earned in virtually all fields. It's not as though this happened through biological evolution. It was mediated by cultural changes. It turns out that this is the case for a lot of things that people think are wrapped up in the notions of "masculinity" and "femininity." A lot of the aggregate differences in preferences, roles, and aptitudes men and women display are a function of social differences rather than physical sex.

You portray people who think this as ideologues who refuse to acknowledge reality. The irony here is that you are the ideologue who is either to unaware or unconcerned with the actual state of evidence to sway your firmly-held beliefs. You alternatively criticize feminists in general for holding strawman views and then quite reasonable ones.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

Yes, Light. This is a feature of English called "sarcasm".

Yes, your sarcasm was invoking sexist condescension. It was not to mock the notion of sexist condescension, mind you, but it is an example of it. Got to love someone speaking to feminists to put them back "in their place." You then said "gender is largely a figment of [your] imagination." This is a false assertion which you are, hilariously, using as an example of a truth people just can't acknowledge because it gets in the way of their "stories" (meaning ideology).
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

Tal Bachman wrote:
Re: Newton's religious faith, I would say that as many hours as he spent trying to "unlock Biblical prophecy", were largely wasted - just as would hours be trying to figure out the Nicene Creed, whether Bob Marley was the reincarnation of Joseph in Egypt, the wonder that is Rev. Moon, or where the lost city of "Zarahemla" is. But that doesn't mitigate the fact that modern physics stands on the shoulders of Isaac Newton, does it? Pious man or not, Newton's insights helped provide a basis on which the rational faculties of man have been liberated, so that they can now see what Newton could not.


You listed a series of people who cast aside religion so it wouldn't get in the way of their great pursuits. Newton spent most of his time on his religion and saw his scientific research as religious pursuit that provided support for his beliefs. He could not more clearly be an example of someone who is contradicting your thesis. He literally spent millions of words on writing theology. If you think he wasted his time on religion, then he isn't an example of what you are talking about, 'cause his "stories" did get in the way of other pursuits. If you think he didn't let his religious beliefs influence what he thought about physics, then you are just plain wrong about that. He very much did. It just so happens he got it right, relatively so anyway, which might be what is busting a gasket in your head.
_Tal Bachman
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Post by _Tal Bachman »

Hi Black Hole in the Darkness

You seem to believe that "ideologue" and "academic" are mutually exclusive. That's almost charming.

A few points here. There are indeed many academics who believe that observable differences in aptitudes, emotional responses, aggression, etc., between human males and females, are primarily the result of conditioning. But even the qualifier "primarily" - rather than "entirely" - is some indication of the dent that the results of empirical inquiry have made over the past decades in the false assertion that male and female brains were innately identical. Since, from what I can gather, you appear to doubt this, I recommend a few starter experiments for you:

1.) Sire a boy and a girl. Ensure they receive equal treatment and care. At the age of one, hand each one a car and a Baby Alive. Observe.

2.) Show up at your local middle or high school with a puppy, kitten, or infant. Observe the differences in response between the boys and girls.

3.) Go to your next neighnbourhood Halloween party. Keep track of the costumes worn by both boys and girls. See if you can find any patterns.

Get back to me if you need any more suggestions.

But back to the "academics can't be ideologues" implication. One question for you to consider: Is there some inequality in the distribution of those asserting identical, or near identical, hardwiring between disciplines like English, Gender Studies, etc., and disciplines like Cognitive Neuroscience and Biology? If there is (and of course there is), it would be entirely consistent with my original post here - and indeed, we do find such distribution, for the evidence of innate differences in male and female brains is overwhelming. Sure there are hold-outs - but there always are. (A few books you might like on this topic are Simon Baron-Cohen's "The Essential Difference", Pinker's "Blank Slate", Goldberg's "Why Men Rule", and Brizendine's "The Female Brain".)

So, what's next from you? "I know a guy as verbally skilled as ANY girl?" or "I know a girl who was better than any guy at reading maps?" (Of course there are statistical outliers...).

About the condescension: I do have scorn for people - men (like you) and women alike - who continue to assert things contradicted by all the best evidence available, especially when those things have direct relevance to the question of how we ought to live. It is not fair either to females or males in general, nor to those we may be involved with personally, to place undue expectation on them because of ideological commitments, the plausibility of which may now be shattered by the results of forty years of conscientious research. And, as you seem not to have considered it, a commitment to drawing conclusions from the best evidence available, as opposed to (specious) claims to knowledge which exist on pre-commitments to things like holy spirits, Communist manifestos, or tarot cards, is the ANTITHESIS of "ideological commitment".

Have fun with your reading (and at the Halloween party).

Tal
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

Simon Baron Cohen is a hack

For instance see here:

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/%7Elds/sexsci/

This, by the way, reminds me of an old Mixing Memory post that expresses a sentiment worth sharing:
Just minutes after I finished writing the previous post on "dangerous ideas," I stumbled across this post (via Pandagon) on a NYT opinion article by David Brooks. Unfortunately, the David Brooks article is available by subscription only, but the part of the article quoted in the post has exactly what I needed: a dangerous misuse of one of the ideas mentioned in the "dangerous ideas" post. Here's Brooks:

Her third mistake is to not even grapple with the fact that men and women are wired differently. The Larry Summers flap produced an outpouring of work on the neurological differences between men and women. I'd especially recommend "The Inequality Taboo" by Charles Murray in Commentary and a debate between Steven Pinker and Elizabeth Spelke in the online magazine Edge.

One of the findings of this research is that men are more interested in things and abstract rules while women are more interested in people. (You can come up with your own Darwinian explanation as to why.)

Oh look, there's Simon Baron-Cohen again, this time in the mouth of Brooks, helping a misogynist hack to argue that women should stay home with the family instead of having careers. But there are two problems with the way Brooks uses this. First, "abstract rules" and "systematizing" aren't quite the same things. I don't know of any recent researcher who has argued that men are more interested in abstract rules specifically. I suppose it depends on what kinds of rules we're talking about.

The second problem, is that there's really no good evidence for Baron-Cohen's systematizing-empathizing distinction, and there aren't really any other explanations in cognitive science of the old stereotype that men like objects and women like people that get any attention. Elizabeth Spelke did a good job of describing the research that bears on Baron-Cohen's theory, and pointing out how none of it really supported his theory, in her in press paper on sex differences in math ability, which you can read here (the discussion of B-C's work is in the first section after the introduction, beginning on p. 5). Thus, Brooks is using a theory with no empirical support to argue for his misogynistic beliefs.

And you can't really blame Brooks; he's a rabid misogynist, and he will look for anything to justify that. You have to blame Baron-Cohen, and people like Steven Pinker, who make these claims public before they've undergone rigorous scientific scrutiny. Once they're out there, it's damn near impossible to get rid of them, no matter how many scientists come forward to say that it turns out the evidence tells a different story. Responsible scientists don't build large theories on one or two unreplicated studies, and then spend a great deal of time talking about them to the media, or writing books for laypeople about them, all the while ignoring a wealth of conflicting evidence. This, I think, is the main reason why people like me have such a strong dislike towards Evolutionary Psychologists, a dislike that goes beyond simply believing that their work is subpar. They are dangerous, not because of what they say, but because of whom they say it to.


http://mixingmemory.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... ly-is.html

You, unfortunately, are the credulous dupe that can make people like Pinker seem so annoying.

It's really wonderful that you speak about following where the evidence leads when the state of the evidence to those minimally informed on this topic points to the opposite conclusion of what you are arguing. You do this while you hang onto a few theorists on the academic fringe publishing pop-sci books as a means to condescend others. You might as well tell people that evolution is false story held by dogmatic ideologues and then tell people to read Behe and Wells.

There are innate differences between male and female brains. It turns out those innate differences do very little explain why, for example, men have traditionally done better on math tests than women in comparison to social factors. One of the things that should clue you into this is how performance gaps have changed in various nations in tandem with social changes towards gender roles. There are very few people who deny there are innate (hereditary) differences in male and female brains. But that is not what you are arguing. You are arguing that those differences are what explain differences in things like ability to read a map or verbal skills in men or women. The vast majority of academics you tried to say are on your side actually disagree with you at this point. They do this because the evidence against you is overwhelming (see, for instance, the paper I linked.)

1.) Sire a boy and a girl. Ensure they receive equal treatment and care. At the age of one, hand each one a car and a Baby Alive. Observe.


Step 1 is impossible.
2. ...
3.) Go to your next neighnbourhood Halloween party. Keep track of the costumes worn by both boys and girls. See if you can find any patterns.

etc. etc.

Yeah. It turns out those differences are most significantly explainable in terms of socio-cultural factors. Go figure. Your thesis is a matter of causes in differences, not the mere existence of them. Simply going out and observing aggregate gender differences doesn't support your thesis. Asian women outperform European men on math achievement scores. Therefore, Asian women are genetically predisposed to math aptitude relative to European men? No, not necessarily. (And no, not in actuality either.)

Have fun reading actual peer-reviewed research instead of pop-sci books. It might help you go beyond your shallow understanding of the subjects you pontificate on.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

1. Tal is not, for all intents and purposes, an intellectually serous or honest critic of Mormonism and its culture. A clever polemicist perhaps, but not something to sink one's teeth into.

2. He just took Light to the woodshed for attempting to pass off feminist ideological mythology as serious sociological analysis. Shame, shame (but lLght still did a sterling job with Beckwith, so three cheers on that one).

Modern feminism is a one of the preeminent forms of Cultural Marxism that has had far reaching effects on modern society, politics, and academia, all destructive and all not yet finished in their program of the obliteration of both liberal Democracy and the Jedeo-Christian moral/social framework. While it is certainly true that gender, to some extent, is "socially constructed" (and how I hate even using this overworked example of postmodern analytical pretension), modern feminism's extreme view of those dynamics are primarily ideological in nature (with all that implies), and have little in the way of plausibly or evidence going for them once they are inspected in greater philosophical detail.

Feminism is one of a body of grand ideological explanations for all social phenomena based in terms of the classic oppressor/oppressed paradigm, and all of its core ideological premises reflect its unique philosophical origins and development.

The social construction of gender is a core necessity for the Left because its desire to dismantle the entire Judeo/Christian cultural and moral framework regarding marriage, family structure, and the boundaries and conditions of human sexuality require precisely such a radically relativist template.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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