Seven wrote:I think you seem like a great guy Nehor, which is why I find it hard to believe you can only "hope" you wouldn't bash a child to death. Fear. no matter how irrational, couldn't drive me to commit such a heinous act.
If you are trying to guard yourself against becoming a murdering religous fanatic, the first step would be to know your conscience on what is right and wrong. Those who only define right and wrong based on what Prophets/ leaders tells them God commands, are the type of people that I fear. They are the kind of people that will murder if the Prophet told them too. (after they pray for their witness ;) These are also the ones who at first will be sickened by the evil command but then make themselves submit to God. There is no justification or context for slaughtering by your hand, innocent chldren. I know many people who cringe at the horrific things written in the Old Testament and try to see it through some grand perspective of God's plan to make it feel better. I know longer need to do that because I have allowed myself to follow what my God given conscience tells me and what my knowledge of the Bible's history has told me.
Haun's Mill, however tragic, doesn't even come close to MMM.
The difference between Haun's Mill and MMM is one of scale, not of horrific decisions made.
I admit I've given up saying I'll never do something. Many of the things I in righteous indignation said I would never do I ended up doing. If I had to guess I would say that I wouldn't kill a child. The shooting the men in the caravan? Less sure but still think I wouldn't.
I'm not so much worried about not becoming a murdering religious fanatic. I'm more concerned about becoming irrational at all. I don't think those people were murdering religious fanatics. From what I know murderous religious fanatics don't stop once they get started. MMM was an isolated incident. These were probably fairly normal people who got caught up in a fervor and followed some orders from a man caught up in the same situation. I would agree that conscience is critical. So would be avoiding decisions when caught up in emotional fervor, revenge, fear, hate, or even joy.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
GIMR wrote:Please show me an incident in which people killed with clear minds.
Can't, histories don't give accurate records of the emotional states of those who kill. I would guess that many wartime killings fit the bill though. Some well-planned non-crimes of passion murders.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:Most don't go murdering everybody they perceive as a threat. The idea of a preemptive strike is not new to this generation though.
Yes, removing evil dictators whose regime has massacred thousands to millions of people many times requires war. There are many conflicts I wish our governement became more involved with in Africa. Saving innocent children by arresting wicked men and sometimes killing if necessary is not evil. If you believe the women and children of the Francher party came there to murder the Mormons, then I can see how they would be fearful. What they could have done was arrest them since they were unarmed.
I don't care to debate about the preemptive war in Iraq because it will derail the thread but want to say that the Mormons were not persecuted in any comparable way to those we have gone to war against. The great majority of our brave military are not out massacring innocent children by their hands out of "fear." There are bad apples in every group, but for the most part our military is there to protect and serve the Iraqi people so they can have freedom/democracy. They do everything in their power to avoid innocent casualties when fighting against terrorists.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
GIMR wrote:Please show me an incident in which people killed with clear minds.
Can't, histories don't give accurate records of the emotional states of those who kill. I would guess that many wartime killings fit the bill though. Some well-planned non-crimes of passion murders.
That doesn't prove to me that these people had clear minds. Have you seen The Last King of Scotland? That man is responsible for the birth of my little brother, Benjamin. Had Amin not come to power, my stepmother would never been sent from Uganda. Did Amin have a clear mind? Did Hussein? Just because something is planned out doesn't mean that the person planning it is rational.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
Nehor wrote: I don't think those people were murdering religious fanatics. From what I know murderous religious fanatics don't stop once they get started. MMM was an isolated incident. These were probably fairly normal people who got caught up in a fervor and followed some orders from a man caught up in the same situation. I would agree that conscience is critical. So would be avoiding decisions when caught up in emotional fervor, revenge, fear, hate, or even joy.
I disagree. During this time period, most Mormons were fanatical. Even Bushman said in an interview If I recall correctly, that Mormons embrace the radical attitudes of their ancestors. Makes their religion more exciting or something like that.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
GIMR wrote:That doesn't prove to me that these people had clear minds. Have you seen The Last King of Scotland? That man is responsible for the birth of my little brother, Benjamin. Had Amin not come to power, my stepmother would never been sent from Uganda. Did Amin have a clear mind? Did Hussein? Just because something is planned out doesn't mean that the person planning it is rational.
I'm just guessing, I admit. It's no sure thing. Most murders (and crimes in general) are probably not done in a right state of mind. This is a strong incentive for me to stay in my right mind......or at least my harmless insane one left over from my Goth days. :)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I'm just guessing, I admit. It's no sure thing. Most murders (and crimes in general) are probably not done in a right state of mind. This is a strong incentive for me to stay in my right mind......or at least my harmless insane one left over from my Goth days. :)
You sound like you're alright to me. Just don't stop questioning...and keep that picture up.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
Seven wrote:I disagree. During this time period, most Mormons were fanatical. Even Bushman said in an interview If I recall correctly, that Mormons embrace the radical attitudes of their ancestors. Makes their religion more exciting or something like that.
I just don't see it in what I've read. Most were dedicated. In the journals of my great-great grandparents I don't see it. One of them chronicled his time involved in the Utah War and he doesn't sound like a fanatic. Even my great-great-grandmothers admonition to her descendants wasn't fanatical. It read like a heartfelt testimony (the kind that are rarer and rarer in Testimony Meetings) and I was touched. Mostly it was her sharing her love and urging us to develop charity for all.
I also don't think radical and fanatical are synonomous. I'm radical in my opinion on the positive effects of gaming (real games, not video and computer games), reading, and many of my religious views but I don't think I'm a fanatic.
I think my religion is exciting. I'm going to one day walk back into the presence of God and I pray be eventually granted with power over everything. Trying to make that more exciting is like trying to sweeten up sugar-coated sugar cubes.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
GIMR wrote:You sound like you're alright to me. Just don't stop questioning...and keep that picture up.
Is the picture some kind of talisman against evil ;)
It's a couple of years old. I should probably replace it soon.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo