The Depressing Plan of Salvation

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_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Levi,

I'm not sure what you are saying.
But, don't you see a rather common thread in this board when one does not believe in a God? To hell with everybody else.


I see the exact opposite.

Those who believe in God seem to be the ones who think everyone must believe as do they or they will end up in hell... or some variation thereof (lesser kingdom, outer darkness, etc).

My problem with most religions is the... "We are the wonderful/great/right/good/more special" ones... everyone else is just not quite as good.

:-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Who Knows wrote:Then you take a step back, and realize it's pretty ridiculous. There's maybe only a couple of things that my kids could do, that would make me kick them out of my life FOREVER (joining a specified religion ain't one of them).

You seem to be making a baseless assumption about my thinking on this matter. In another place, under different circumstances, I'd be happy to discuss the issue. Not here, though.

truth dancer wrote:I had a similar time as a child.

I was a child convert. My father is agnostic, my mother joined a few years after I. Everytime I heard, "families can be together forever," I heard, "I will be alone in heaven."

The Plan, for me, was, no matter how good I was, I would not be with my family. My parents were not sealed, I was not sealed to anyone. I would not be with my parents and siblings.

I never liked the plan. It always seems so elitist, so cruel, so wrong. So NOT what a child needs to here. I spent many a night as a child crying, wondering why God would create such a plan.

I grew up with a non-Mormon father and a semi-active Mormon mother. I heard nothing about the plan of salvation, really, until sometime in my teens. I've always loved it. And, probably not coincidentally, I've always read the doctrine of the Restoration in at least a quasi-universalist way. The glass is not half or more empty, but half full at a minimum.

I can't see how it's better, incidentally, to believe that nobody can be with his or her family than to believe that at least some people can be. But then, I'm probably lying.
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

truth dancer wrote:Hi Levi,

I'm not sure what you are saying.
But, don't you see a rather common thread in this board when one does not believe in a God? To hell with everybody else.


I see the exact opposite.

Those who believe in God seem to be the ones who think everyone must believe as do they or they will end up in hell... or some variation thereof (lesser kingdom, outer darkness, etc).

My problem with most religions is the... "We are the wonderful/great/right/good/more special" ones... everyone else is just not quite as good.

:-)

~dancer~


Amen. LDS believe they are elect. Those who don't recognize their version of truth are not of the elect, so to hell with them, dust your feet on their threshold, we don't want them in our heaven.
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I can't see how it's better, incidentally, to believe that nobody can be with his or her family than to believe that at least some people can be. But then, I'm probably lying.


Who believes that nobody can be with their families?
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:Amen. LDS believe they are elect. Those who don't recognize their version of truth are not of the elect, so to hell with them, dust your feet on their threshold, we don't want them in our heaven.

Wow. Really? I don't recognize that as the church I belong to.
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:Who believes that nobody can be with their families?

The same people who believe that marriage lasts "until death do us part." I've actually met them.

I have to admit, candidly, that I find this discussion here really weird. I've always thought of the notion of eternal families, and always heard it presented, as good news on top of what people already tended to believe about individual immortality, not as a subtraction from what people already believed. Mainstream Christians already believed that we would continue to exist as individual angels in the life to come, without special relationships to people who had once been members of our earthly family. Mormonism came to take nothing away from the idea of continued individual existence, but to add to it the (to me, very good news) that earthly kin-relationships would be made eternal. That's not negative. It's wonderfully positive.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Hoops
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Post by _Hoops »

Lucretia:

I understand your frustration when you hear such things. I would never say such a thing to you nor do I know anyone who would, still, your reaction comes from somewhere and I empathize.
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Who Knows wrote:Then you take a step back, and realize it's pretty ridiculous. There's maybe only a couple of things that my kids could do, that would make me kick them out of my life FOREVER (joining a specified religion ain't one of them).

You seem to be making a baseless assumption about my thinking on this matter. In another place, under different circumstances, I'd be happy to discuss the issue. Not here, though.

truth dancer wrote:I had a similar time as a child.

I was a child convert. My father is agnostic, my mother joined a few years after I. Everytime I heard, "families can be together forever," I heard, "I will be alone in heaven."

The Plan, for me, was, no matter how good I was, I would not be with my family. My parents were not sealed, I was not sealed to anyone. I would not be with my parents and siblings.

I never liked the plan. It always seems so elitist, so cruel, so wrong. So NOT what a child needs to here. I spent many a night as a child crying, wondering why God would create such a plan.

I grew up with a non-Mormon father and a semi-active Mormon mother. I heard nothing about the plan of salvation, really, until sometime in my teens. I've always loved it. And, probably not coincidentally, I've always read the doctrine of the Restoration in at least a quasi-universalist way. The glass is not half or more empty, but half full at a minimum.

I can't see how it's better, incidentally, to believe that nobody can be with his or her family than to believe that at least some people can be. But then, I'm probably lying.

My parents heard some GA say something that made them think that just maybe they could get me into the CK based on their faith and prayers.
Last edited by W3C [Validator] on Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Dan...

I grew up with a non-Mormon father and a semi-active Mormon mother. I heard nothing about the plan of salvation, really, until sometime in my teens.


I didn't know the term, "Plan of Salvation" but I was well aware as a child that I would most certainly NOT be with my family. It was extremely distressing for me.

I've always loved it. And, probably not coincidentally, I've always read the doctrine of the Restoration in at least a quasi-universalist way. The glass is not half or more empty, but half full at a minimum.


I never liked it. While the "chosen" people will get to be together forever, the rest of humankind will be separated for eternity from loved ones and family... it just doesn't feel very holy to me.

I can't see how it's better, incidentally, to believe that nobody can be with his or her family than to believe that at least some people can be. But then, I'm probably lying.


Why do you say you are probably lying? Lying about what?

Yes, some people being with their families is better than no one being with their families. Personally I can't imagine heaven without one's loved ones.

The whole idea of heaven in the LDS church just completely doesn't fit a heavently place in my mind.

:-)

~dancer!
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Who Knows wrote:Then you take a step back, and realize it's pretty ridiculous. There's maybe only a couple of things that my kids could do, that would make me kick them out of my life FOREVER (joining a specified religion ain't one of them).

You seem to be making a baseless assumption about my thinking on this matter.


Huh? I didn't make any assumption about your thinking. I was telling you my thoughts.

In another place, under different circumstances, I'd be happy to discuss the issue. Not here, though.


Not here, as in not in this thread? Or not here, as in not on this board? This kingdom?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
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