so, what happened today in Sacrament meeting?

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_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Ray A wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:Ray, I try to do my part in the world. That's all I'll say.


I don't doubt it, but there's nothing wrong with someone praying for lost keys while others are starving to death, anymore than there's something wrong with someone watching TV while others are starving to death? There's only so much we can do. Do you think rich people are not entitled to blessings from God merely because they are rich? Consider the teaching of Jesus that God allows the rain to fall on both the just, and the unjust. I like God, because he seems free of human prejudice.


No, there is nothing wrong with someone praying for whatever they want to. I think people that feel God is personal and a part of their lives are actually pretty content. I don't fault them for that at all.

The only thing it does when I hear statements like that though is puts another nail in the coffin so to speak. I just don't understand the personal God for some and not for so many others.

Ray, I wish I had the assurance of God.. or I suppose what I think that is like. Where I had a sense that my past sins were wiped clean. Where I knew there was some greater purpose. It's just that it is difficult for me when I view others suffering.

I do feel guilty watching tv while others starve to death. Immense guilt.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

dartagnan wrote:I don't see this as justification for making kids go up and bear a testimony they don't have. I mean these poor kids are conditioned to follow the party line as early as age three. I have seen this done on too many occassions to count. The Mom or Dad, or both, go up and whisper the testimony to the kid and the kid repeats it into the microphone.

It simply won't do to say they are kids and therefore they know the Church is true because kids have the spirit. This is circular reasoning that begs the question and still doesn't avoid the conditioning methods that have become institutionalized in the Church.

This is a major issue I have in the Church.


Kevin---Hasn't the Church spoken out against this practice?

It seems like I remember several years ago something being read from the pulpit that testimonies were to be kept brief.....not a travel log...they were to confirm faithfulness of the gospel with perhaps a short story or reflection supporting this, but nothing too lengthy, and there was also a mention about young children bearing testimonies. It was encouraged that this be kept more to the primary room setting.

Parents bringing little kids up routinely is not an issue in my ward. And I agree with your sentiment. It would bother me if it was. Every once in a while, a parent will come up with a little one and bear his/her testimony, and the little boy or girl will want to say something into the microphone, simply because Mom or Dad did, and the parent will acquiesce, but it is the exception, not the rule.
_KimberlyAnn
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Post by _KimberlyAnn »

Sethbag wrote:What exactly does "testimony" mean coming from the mouth of a kid so young they don't even know how to tie their own shoe? They couldn't tell you that 2 + 2 = 4, or read the word "cat", yet they "know" that Joseph Smith is a true prophet, that the Book of Mormon is true, etc. Give me a break. That's a testimonkey if ever a situation justifed that term. I'm sorry if the term offends, but fostering an environment where little children are encouraged to stand up and regurgitate crap that they don't even understand, in order both to please their parents, and also plant the seeds of indoctrination into the child's head, so that as they grow older they come to believe they really do "know" something, partly because they've been saying it for so long, well that's offensive to me. If you don't like it, fine. That's creating a positive feedback loop where the positive sensation of having pleased one's parents, and done the socially expected thing, condition the child to believe in that thing, because the positive experience, and positive feelings, are associated with that thing.

And as far as God not treating his kids any differently, that's fine, and I get your point. My point, however, is that God doesn't seem to be watching over and helping his kids around the world, both rich and poor. We folks here in the USA get to find our car keys, or little dog Foofoo that ran away, or whatever, but that African kid's arm still got chopped off by a tribesman from an opposing tribe with a machete. And his neighbor got washed away by a tidal wave, and his parents are dead from AIDS, and so on and so forth. But yeah, that little AIDS-ridden, starving, one-armed African orphan child, if he loses his little stone trinket, can pray to God, and the Holy Ghost will probably show him where it is. That's just great news, and sure proof, if ever there was a need for any, of God's existence.


I'd like to post before you today and bear my testimony that what Sethbag says is true. And that Joseph Smith was not in any way a prophet, but a liar, and that the Book of Mormon is a bad, disjointed, poorly written and immensely boring work of fiction. Isaythisinthenameofmyselfamen.

KA
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

A few comments:

1. If we are constrained in what we can ask for, in our prayers, our agency is the victim. Pray for world peace, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to end world hunger, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to find your car keys, and then look for them! I've never heard of anyone having their car keys appear in their hand after they prayed about it. Even finding car keys requires action.

2. If finding lost car keys is important (can't get to work, can't take children to school, missed plane so didn't go to training so got fired so family is now homeless) then I don't see why asking for a little help is such a bad thing. Who are we to judge what is important in each life?

3. Just because we live in a place where we don't have neighbors who go to war against us doesn't mean we all have an easy life. The consequences of our choices follow us, no matter where we live. Those who live in Africa and have unprotected sex with multiple partners are quite likely to catch AIDS. That is a consequence of their choice. That the resulting children also have AIDS is a consequence of the parents' choice. Why should God remove the consequence of the parents choice? To do so would negate their agency. Is the child worth more to God than the parents? Blame the parents, not God. Same goes for the warring tribes. It's their choice to go to war, their choice to attack children with machetes. Blame the tribesmen, not God. Were he to take their agency away, he could do the same to us.

God is no respector of persons. Therein lies the greatest blessing he could give us. The rain falls on the rich and the poor alike. We are required to care for our brothers, love our enemies, comfort the grieving and feed the poor. Do we? Or do we expect God to do it for us? Do we give what we have freely, or do we complain that we are made to feel guilty because we only grudgingly give it away? People are dying in Africa, yes, and everywhere else around the world. They always have. They always will. It is the nature of life. The only thing we can change is How. The choices we make in life is what determines the how of our death. Does the African tribeman choose to weild a machete in order to steal another's land and home? Or does he choose instead to be a healer, a peacemaker, a leader of his tribe in more modern ways? He chooses his own path, just as we choose ours. God will not take the agency given to anyone, not even those who do evil or whose choices mean dire consequences for others.

All of the suffering in this world is caused by men, not God.
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Trinity wrote:I contributed 50K last year to charitable (nonLDS) organizations to help alleviate the suffering in the world and will likely do the same amount this year.


50K?? Hell, that's more than I made last year, even after I busted my ass working overtime almost every damn day!

Tell you what: I worked an average of twelve hours a day over just the last four days. If you want to help alleviate suffering in the world, for heaven's sake, just send me some of that disposable 50K!

Sethbag wrote:It's about how ridiculous it is for white, middle-class Americans to imagine that some God up in heaven, who created this universe of billions of billions of stars and solar systems, and planets, and whatnot, prompted them to find their car keys, and meanwhile the "weightier matters" are left undone by God, like preventing the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of people.


You should've heard the person who said that since missionary work is really slow in those countries, the tsunami was God's way of baptizing the people himself, so they're much better off now than before.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

dartagnan wrote:I don't see this as justification for making kids go up and bear a testimony they don't have. I mean these poor kids are conditioned to follow the party line as early as age three. I have seen this done on too many occassions to count. The Mom or Dad, or both, go up and whisper the testimony to the kid and the kid repeats it into the microphone.

It simply won't do to say they are kids and therefore they know the Church is true because kids have the spirit. This is circular reasoning that begs the question and still doesn't avoid the conditioning methods that have become institutionalized in the Church.

This is a major issue I have in the Church.


Church policy is that if a child can not give a testimony on their own then they shouldn't stand up in Sacrament Meeting to do so. I've attended wards where this policy is ignored though :(
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Dr. Shades wrote:You should've heard the person who said that since missionary work is really slow in those countries, the tsunami was God's way of baptizing the people himself, so they're much better off now than before.


Though we're told not to judge I would hazard a guess that that person has pride and self-righteousness issues.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

harmony wrote:A few comments:

1. If we are constrained in what we can ask for, in our prayers, our agency is the victim. Pray for world peace, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to end world hunger, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to find your car keys, and then look for them! I've never heard of anyone having their car keys appear in their hand after they prayed about it. Even finding car keys requires action.

2. If finding lost car keys is important (can't get to work, can't take children to school, missed plane so didn't go to training so got fired so family is now homeless) then I don't see why asking for a little help is such a bad thing. Who are we to judge what is important in each life?

3. Just because we live in a place where we don't have neighbors who go to war against us doesn't mean we all have an easy life. The consequences of our choices follow us, no matter where we live. Those who live in Africa and have unprotected sex with multiple partners are quite likely to catch AIDS. That is a consequence of their choice. That the resulting children also have AIDS is a consequence of the parents' choice. Why should God remove the consequence of the parents choice? To do so would negate their agency. Is the child worth more to God than the parents? Blame the parents, not God. Same goes for the warring tribes. It's their choice to go to war, their choice to attack children with machetes. Blame the tribesmen, not God. Were he to take their agency away, he could do the same to us.

God is no respector of persons. Therein lies the greatest blessing he could give us. The rain falls on the rich and the poor alike. We are required to care for our brothers, love our enemies, comfort the grieving and feed the poor. Do we? Or do we expect God to do it for us? Do we give what we have freely, or do we complain that we are made to feel guilty because we only grudgingly give it away? People are dying in Africa, yes, and everywhere else around the world. They always have. They always will. It is the nature of life. The only thing we can change is How. The choices we make in life is what determines the how of our death. Does the African tribeman choose to weild a machete in order to steal another's land and home? Or does he choose instead to be a healer, a peacemaker, a leader of his tribe in more modern ways? He chooses his own path, just as we choose ours. God will not take the agency given to anyone, not even those who do evil or whose choices mean dire consequences for others.

All of the suffering in this world is caused by men, not God.


Well said
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

[quote="harmony"

God is no respector of persons. Therein lies the greatest blessing he could give us. The rain falls on the rich and the poor alike. We are required to care for our brothers, love our enemies, comfort the grieving and feed the poor. Do we? Or do we expect God to do it for us? Do we give what we have freely, or do we complain that we are made to feel guilty because we only grudgingly give it away? People are dying in Africa, yes, and everywhere else around the world. They always have. They always will. It is the nature of life. The only thing we can change is How. The choices we make in life is what determines the how of our death. Does the African tribeman choose to weild a machete in order to steal another's land and home? Or does he choose instead to be a healer, a peacemaker, a leader of his tribe in more modern ways? He chooses his own path, just as we choose ours. God will not take the agency given to anyone, not even those who do evil or whose choices mean dire consequences for others.

All of the suffering in this world is caused by men, not God.


I agree with many of your comments. God isn't supposed to interfere with another's agency. I believe it is up to each of us to change the world and the suffering we see. When it comes to my needs here in America, I just can't accept that He would bless me with finding my car keys while He ignores the millions of pleas and prayers to Him of those suffering at the hands of the most wicked actions on earth. My needs are very superficial in comparison. I don't want Him to help me if He won't help the child starving and orphaned because their parents were massacred.

So why do LDS believe that he intervenes for them? My MIL fell asleep at the wheel when my DH was a baby and flipped her car over a few times with all the kids inside. There were some minor injuries but no fatalities. She believes God intervened to save them because they had missions to fulfill as Mormons/God's chosen. I have a really hard time believing God protected them from her poor choice of driving tired while he allows consequences of other peoples choices to play out all over the rest of the world. We see people make the same poor choices all the time and some get off lucky.
How can they attribute their luck to God without feeling they are more special than another? My TBM friends & family tell story after story of how God answered their prayers for a bigger house, moving, warning them of danger, getting a new job, having another baby, etc.

Much of the attitude I see in Chapels or testimony meeting indirectly comes from the belief that each of us are placed in our conditions based on our faithfulness to the law before we came. The teachings on the pre existence tell LDS that Africans are suffering because they were not good in heaven and LDS are so blessed because they are God's chosen/elect. That attitude makes me sick and I hear it all the time when I discuss the incomparable suffering of our brothers and sisters that were born in horrific circumstances.
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

harmony wrote:A few comments:

1. If we are constrained in what we can ask for, in our prayers, our agency is the victim. Pray for world peace, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to end world hunger, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to find your car keys, and then look for them! I've never heard of anyone having their car keys appear in their hand after they prayed about it. Even finding car keys requires action.

2. If finding lost car keys is important (can't get to work, can't take children to school, missed plane so didn't go to training so got fired so family is now homeless) then I don't see why asking for a little help is such a bad thing. Who are we to judge what is important in each life?

3. Just because we live in a place where we don't have neighbors who go to war against us doesn't mean we all have an easy life. The consequences of our choices follow us, no matter where we live. Those who live in Africa and have unprotected sex with multiple partners are quite likely to catch AIDS. That is a consequence of their choice. That the resulting children also have AIDS is a consequence of the parents' choice. Why should God remove the consequence of the parents choice? To do so would negate their agency. Is the child worth more to God than the parents? Blame the parents, not God. Same goes for the warring tribes. It's their choice to go to war, their choice to attack children with machetes. Blame the tribesmen, not God. Were he to take their agency away, he could do the same to us.

God is no respector of persons. Therein lies the greatest blessing he could give us. The rain falls on the rich and the poor alike. We are required to care for our brothers, love our enemies, comfort the grieving and feed the poor. Do we? Or do we expect God to do it for us? Do we give what we have freely, or do we complain that we are made to feel guilty because we only grudgingly give it away? People are dying in Africa, yes, and everywhere else around the world. They always have. They always will. It is the nature of life. The only thing we can change is How. The choices we make in life is what determines the how of our death. Does the African tribeman choose to weild a machete in order to steal another's land and home? Or does he choose instead to be a healer, a peacemaker, a leader of his tribe in more modern ways? He chooses his own path, just as we choose ours. God will not take the agency given to anyone, not even those who do evil or whose choices mean dire consequences for others.

All of the suffering in this world is caused by men, not God.


I just wonder then, what is the point of God? What does He do?

I expect God to do nothing for me. Or anyone else.

***edited to add***
The longer I post here the more heretical I become.
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