Impotence or Omnipotence. A Question about the Mormon God

[_The Nehor]

Well, considering that the primary motivator for having faith is rooted in comfort, this is hardly surprising at all.

I'd also attribute some of it to a lack of decent education.

Make up your mind, are we:

1. a complacent group of borderline retarded people who take great solace and comfort in believing we're special and saved and that all will be well for us forever?

2. pawns of a powerful society that uses guilt to control our every action and hounds us in order to squeeze us dry and offers us comfort only when we achieve impossible standards we know in our heart of hearts we can never succeed at?

Lack of education? The LDS Church is way above the national average in terms of the education level of it's members.

Faith is not rooted in comfort. It is a mild consolation AFTER you face some scary facts. God created the Universe and put us in it and so far all of us have broken his laws. He is not lenient about his laws at all. LDS members have to figure out how to get back into communion with God and stay there. They have to figure out what path they must walk in order to allow Christ to save them. LDS Theology (and Christian Theology) don't start talking to people until they face the fact that their life is not pleasing to God and they can't change that no matter how hard they try. It's a scary situation.

You call that comforting? I envy atheists sometimes because of their ease of life. They can play games with philosophies, adopt and discard moralities, and choose their own law to live by. Then they figure when they die it's over. Nothing is permanent so the only meaning attached to existence is what we ourselves give it. That sounds easy and comfortable.

God demands much, much, more.

[_ozemc]

Thanks for sharing that, Stu. You're so brave.

I don't know if God exists or not, but if he does, I'm not liking him very much lately. For some reason, I keep hoping he does indeed exist to eventually, in heaven, right the wrongs for those whom he refused to help in this life. Strangely ironic, isn't it?

My sister is deaf and had one blessing after another that promised her a healing, but that never came to pass. It was a terrible blow to me as a young girl. I sincerely hope there is a heaven for you, Stu, where everything will be clear, and where my sister can hear, and those Darfur babies can be held and loved and cared for as all little babies should be. But I'm more and more doubting there is, so, I have to try to make this life as heavenly as possible for everyone I can reach. I think I'll try harder. KA

As one who was born with a hearing defect, I am wondering if your sister has lost faith in God like you, or whether she, like me, has retained and grown in faith in spite of, or perhaps because of, not being healed?

You know, Wade, I often read your posts with a bit in incredulity, but I thought you seemed to have some decency about you. This was just arrogant and crass. How dare you make light of someone's infirmities as if their faith had anything to do with it? As if God is "up there" saying, "Well, she just doesn't have enough faith, she'll have to suffer. Maybe if she was a little more faithfull, I would heal her. " Sounds very petty to me.

If you would take just a moment to climb down from your lofty perch high atop mount self-righteous, and allow some oxygen to get to your brain, you just may discover from re-reading my comments more carefully and with somewhat less credulity, that I wasn't speaking about infirmities being a function of faith or the lack thereof (as you mistakenly assume), but rather just the opposite. I was speaking about one's faith, or the loss thereof, being a function of infirmities. Are you capable of grasping that critical distinction?

I see my observation of you as arrogant and crass still applies.

Interesting that you talk of self-righteousness, coming from one who believes all other churches are not true.

I think that putting "faith as a function of the infirmities" is cold, and a sad way to look at your own faith. You're placing conditions upon it, as if saying to God that you will either believe in Him or not based on what He can, or will, do for you. Seems very self-centered, and certainly not how I would like to live my life of faith.

Your post was a snide way to take a swipe at KA in her faith journey.

Lately, mention has been made on this board of the travesties in Africa and Darfur. Now, those of us living in relative luxury may rightly be pained to learn of the starvation and deprevation in those places, and some may even view these things as cause to doubt the existence of God. I find it interesting, though, to learn that some of the impoverished and beleagered Africans have come to a belief in God (not a few becoming LDS), and who have found their belief in Him to be a welcomed source of comfort and strength, and a means for raising themselves above those conditions in various ways and on various levels.

Isn't it fascinating how the same events and circumstance can cause a loss of faith in some people and a gaining or increase in faith in other people--particularly those most directly involved in the events and circumstances?

Why do you suppose that is?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That is a very interesting question.

One example that I can think of is how the winners in a sport will say that "God was with us", and the losers in the same contest will hang their heads and say "It must have been God's will".

So, God is taking sides now?

I think in answer to your question, it all depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

Please clarify what you mean by "rabbit hole".

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well, it seems pretty unfairly judgemental of God to take one set of players over the other. Both have practiced hard, both have probably prayed to Him for victory, and both tried their best.

Is it God's will that a mother should die in a car accident, and never see her small children grow up?

Is it God's will that one person on the bridge collapse in MN be saved because he stopped for coffee, and the next didn't make it because he never stopped?

People try to assume God's will for everything.

[_ozemc]

Well, considering that the primary motivator for having faith is rooted in comfort, this is hardly surprising at all.

I'd also attribute some of it to a lack of decent education.

Make up your mind, are we:

1. a complacent group of borderline retarded people who take great solace and comfort in believing we're special and saved and that all will be well for us forever?

2. pawns of a powerful society that uses guilt to control our every action and hounds us in order to squeeze us dry and offers us comfort only when we achieve impossible standards we know in our heart of hearts we can never succeed at?

Lack of education? The LDS Church is way above the national average in terms of the education level of it's members.

Faith is not rooted in comfort. It is a mild consolation AFTER you face some scary facts. God created the Universe and put us in it and so far all of us have broken his laws. He is not lenient about his laws at all. LDS members have to figure out how to get back into communion with God and stay there. They have to figure out what path they must walk in order to allow Christ to save them. LDS Theology (and Christian Theology) don't start talking to people until they face the fact that their life is not pleasing to God and they can't change that no matter how hard they try. It's a scary situation.

You call that comforting? I envy atheists sometimes because of their ease of life. They can play games with philosophies, adopt and discard moralities, and choose their own law to live by. Then they figure when they die it's over. Nothing is permanent so the only meaning attached to existence is what we ourselves give it. That sounds easy and comfortable.

God demands much, much, more.

I guess the big question is ... how do we know? I mean, for sure. We can all believe there's a God or not, but there's no way to really know.

[_The Nehor]

I guess the big question is ... how do we know? I mean, for sure. We can all believe there's a God or not, but there's no way to really know.

Follow the Savior's advice, "Come and See." Then try it. Live some of it and judge the results.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Lately, mention has been made on this board of the travesties in Africa and Darfur. Now, those of us living in relative luxury may rightly be pained to learn of the starvation and deprevation in those places, and some may even view these things as cause to doubt the existence of God. I find it interesting, though, to learn that some of the impoverished and beleagered Africans have come to a belief in God (not a few becoming LDS), and who have found their belief in Him to be a welcomed source of comfort and strength, and a means for raising themselves above those conditions in various ways and on various levels.

Isn't it fascinating how the same events and circumstance can cause a loss of faith in some people and a gaining or increase in faith in other people--particularly those most directly involved in the events and circumstances?

Why do you suppose that is?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I find that fascinating as well. I suppose it may be the case that in troubled times, as some seek comfort, some may indeed find great comfort and assurance in God.

I wish I knew why some lose faith and others are fortified in their faith when it comes to tragedy. I understand on a very surface level why some people are strengthened by sorrows and yet I wish I could understand why I am not.

If someone could suggest some reading I'm up for it.

Wade, I did quote you but please don't deem it necessary to respond to me.

[_barrelomonkeys]

I envy atheists sometimes because of their ease of life. They can play games with philosophies, adopt and discard moralities, and choose their own law to live by. Then they figure when they die it's over. Nothing is permanent so the only meaning attached to existence is what we ourselves give it. That sounds easy and comfortable.

The only thing you said above that is accurate in my view is the thought of dying. I do believe that when I die there is nothing more. That is not troubling to me.

[_wenglund]

Thanks for sharing that, Stu. You're so brave.

I don't know if God exists or not, but if he does, I'm not liking him very much lately. For some reason, I keep hoping he does indeed exist to eventually, in heaven, right the wrongs for those whom he refused to help in this life. Strangely ironic, isn't it?

My sister is deaf and had one blessing after another that promised her a healing, but that never came to pass. It was a terrible blow to me as a young girl. I sincerely hope there is a heaven for you, Stu, where everything will be clear, and where my sister can hear, and those Darfur babies can be held and loved and cared for as all little babies should be. But I'm more and more doubting there is, so, I have to try to make this life as heavenly as possible for everyone I can reach. I think I'll try harder. KA

As one who was born with a hearing defect, I am wondering if your sister has lost faith in God like you, or whether she, like me, has retained and grown in faith in spite of, or perhaps because of, not being healed?

You know, Wade, I often read your posts with a bit in incredulity, but I thought you seemed to have some decency about you. This was just arrogant and crass. How dare you make light of someone's infirmities as if their faith had anything to do with it? As if God is "up there" saying, "Well, she just doesn't have enough faith, she'll have to suffer. Maybe if she was a little more faithfull, I would heal her. " Sounds very petty to me.

If you would take just a moment to climb down from your lofty perch high atop mount self-righteous, and allow some oxygen to get to your brain, you just may discover from re-reading my comments more carefully and with somewhat less credulity, that I wasn't speaking about infirmities being a function of faith or the lack thereof (as you mistakenly assume), but rather just the opposite. I was speaking about one's faith, or the loss thereof, being a function of infirmities. Are you capable of grasping that critical distinction?

I see my observation of you as arrogant and crass still applies.

Interesting that you talk of self-righteousness, coming from one who believes all other churches are not true.

I think that putting "faith as a function of the infirmities" is cold, and a sad way to look at your own faith. You're placing conditions upon it, as if saying to God that you will either believe in Him or not based on what He can, or will, do for you. Seems very self-centered, and certainly not how I would like to live my life of faith.

Your post was a snide way to take a swipe at KA in her faith journey.

Not only did you get exactly backwards what I have said (as previously demonstrated), but you now compound that nonsense by falsely assuming that I was somehow placing conditions on faith, and that I was taking a swipe at KA's faith journey. In truth, I was mearly ASKING KA whether her sister's faith journey was the same as KA's, or more like mine. No conditions were placed on anyone by that QUESTION. No swipe is being made by that QUESTION.

I am caused to wonder how you could so profoundly misread my relatively simple and obvious question. If you aren't daft or comprehension impaired or if you can understand plain English, than the only explanation that I can see that fits is that you have a stereotyped perception of LDS and their thinking, and you have wrongfully passed my comments through that faulty filter. Am I wrong about that? If so, what explanationn do you have to explain your tortured renderings of what I say?

Lately, mention has been made on this board of the travesties in Africa and Darfur. Now, those of us living in relative luxury may rightly be pained to learn of the starvation and deprevation in those places, and some may even view these things as cause to doubt the existence of God. I find it interesting, though, to learn that some of the impoverished and beleagered Africans have come to a belief in God (not a few becoming LDS), and who have found their belief in Him to be a welcomed source of comfort and strength, and a means for raising themselves above those conditions in various ways and on various levels.

Isn't it fascinating how the same events and circumstance can cause a loss of faith in some people and a gaining or increase in faith in other people--particularly those most directly involved in the events and circumstances?

Why do you suppose that is?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That is a very interesting question.

One example that I can think of is how the winners in a sport will say that "God was with us", and the losers in the same contest will hang their heads and say "It must have been God's will".

So, God is taking sides now?

I think in answer to your question, it all depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

Please clarify what you mean by "rabbit hole".

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well, it seems pretty unfairly judgemental of God to take one set of players over the other. Both have practiced hard, both have probably prayed to Him for victory, and both tried their best.

Is it God's will that a mother should die in a car accident, and never see her small children grow up?

Is it God's will that one person on the bridge collapse in MN be saved because he stopped for coffee, and the next didn't make it because he never stopped?

People try to assume God's will for everything.

I am sorry, but I don't see where you specifically answered my question about what you mean by "rabbit hole". Could you please point it out, or provide a direct answer if you haven't already? You merely expounded a bit more on your chosen example without explaining how faith-perceptions regarding sporting events relate to faith journeys consequential to personal infirmities (like hearing defeects) and deprevations (like in Africa).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_asbestosman]

Not only did you get exactly backwards what I have said (as previously demonstrated), but you now compound that nonsense by falsely assuming that I was somehow placing conditions on faith, and that I was taking a swipe at KA's faith journey. In truth, I was mearly ASKING KA whether her sister's faith journey was the same as KA's, or more like mine. No conditions were placed on anyone by that QUESTION. No swipe is being made by that QUESTION.

Wade,

While I don't think you intended the things of which you are accused, I think the only appropriate thing to do with questions about the Problem of Evils is to simply admit that suffering is indeed difficult. The emotions on such a thing run high which makes further discorse more harmful than helpful. While I also find it remarkable that many people find god through great trials, I think that discussion of such only serves to further hurt those who are deeply hurt about suffering. Many do all they can to alleviate that suffering and yet their efforts are not sufficient to solve it. Naturally they would wonder why those who have more power than they do (assuming they exist) would not and indeed hold them in contempt.

Showing that many who suffer are yet able to come to faith despite the Problem of Evil does not ease the burdens of those who genuinely hurt because of it. Indeed, it can understandably be seen as arrogant.

. . . says the guy who has a really hard time reading others' emotions and communicating effectively.

[_KimberlyAnn]

As one who was born with a hearing defect, I am wondering if your sister has lost faith in God like you, or whether she, like me, has retained and grown in faith in spite of, or perhaps because of, not being healed?

My sister left the Mormon religion several months after I did. Her disaffection with Mormonism had nothing to do with the fact that she wasn't healed of deafness, and mine didn't either - we both just found out Joseph Smith lied.

And I haven't entirely lost belief in God, yet, though for the life of me I can't figure out why not.


KA

[_Runtu]

And I haven't entirely lost belief in God, yet, though for the life of me I can't figure out why not.


KA

That sounds like me. Something inside of me refuses to believe that God isn't out there. But maybe it's just that I want Him to be.