MAD thread: Daniel Peterson Agrees That Church Presents...

[_Jason Bourne]

Do you think it is uncommon that member here direction from various leaders to avoid reading information that is negative and critical about the Church?

It has never happened in my experience. Not a single time.

That suggests that it may not be as all-pervasive and unrelenting as certain people insist.

I am not saying it is preached with regularity but certainly it has been communicated and not as an apparent aberration.

[_Runtu]

Another interesting comment from Scott Lloyd:

What can I say? RfM contributors hardly have a reputation for sterling credibility.

Of course, RFMers are well known as rampant liars.

In fairness, it must be said that the people spreading this reputation are defenders of the faith, who have been taught to believe that apostates are of poor moral character, want to sin, tend to lie, etc. So without solid proof that RFM is full of liars, this "reputation" should be regarded with skepticism.

That's interesting. It's kind of the mirror of the complaint Dr. Peterson made the other day about how people think that apologists are inherently dishonest or deluded. We get into big trouble when we make assumptions about people based on generalizations.

All kinds of people post on RfM, just as all kinds post on MAD. If we're going to generalize about boards, whom do we use as examples? Hammer? Juliann? Her Amun? The Dude? Some people who post on RfM have destroyed their credibility with me, as have some on MAD (and it's obvious that I have no credibility with some people, such as Juliann, and some of that is well deserved). But that doesn't mean everyone on those boards is dishonest.

[_guy sajer]

P.S. -- As always, I defer to Guy Sajer's fervent conviction that he is, in all respects, my superior. Although he knows, and can know, little about the extent of my travels, international residences, etc. -- quick quiz: what was my last international trip? what countries will I visit next month? -- there can be no doubt that he has me beat in that regard, too. (Elementary logic would suggest that, if one wants to compare x and y, it isn't enough merely to know x. But who needs logic when an unusually strong sense of self-confidence will do?)

Dan, I don't consider myself your superior. That's your own insecurities talking. I've stated time and time again the respect I hold for your intellect, writing ability, wit, and so forth. The only thing I've done better than you is publish in peer-reviewed journals, but that's because I don't think you've tried, not because I don't think you're capable. I am highly confident that if you had turned your intellect and writing skills to this purpose, you could have established an admirable publication record.

Instead, you've turned your intellect and writing skills to defending a transparently fraudulent, silly authoritarian, dogmatic, and insignificant religion and to spending God knows how many hours writing numerous and voluminous posts on meaningless internet discussion boards. I think that's a waste, but it's your life, and I don't begrudge you your life's choices.

That said, you are a prolific name dropper, and you like to slip in where you can references to your multitudinous travels, in part, I strongly suspect, to boost your own credibility, and in part, I suspect, in response to your own insecurities.

You may have traveled extensively, but I don't see from your many, many, many posts here and elsewhere that you have really learned all that much in the process. Your world view is limited, parochial, tribal, and tightly hemmed in by a rigidly narrow religious ideology.

A difference between you and me (for good or ill) is I have learned and internalized a very different set of lessons from my travels, one being the complete inability of the Mormon world view to explain the world, and another a realization of the utter triviality and irrelevance of Mormonism in the grand scheme of things, let alone outside of Utah.

I don't think this necessarily makes me superior, but I do think it makes me a more perceptive observer of the human condition.

I assume you disagree.

[_Dr. Shades]

Hmm. The disparity in experience vis-a-vis leaders counselling members to avoid reading anti-Mormon material is striking.

But perhaps it can be harmonized to an extent. Perhaps the leaders themselves aren't giving this counsel nearly as often as the members themselves are giving each other. Just read all the silly caricatures that, say, the MADites make about critics and so-called "anti-Mormon" sources.

Forgive me, but this mindset is quite apparent in many FARMS Reviews. No, the reviewers aren't leaders, but the "avoid anti-Mormon literature" sentiment is expressed occasionally and implied often.

[_asbestosman]

Perhaps the leaders themselves aren't giving this counsel nearly as often as the members themselves are giving each other.

That is precisely what I was thinking. However, I'm still not sure it answers everything since the leaders in fact come from the members themselves what with our layclergy and all.

[_Runtu]

Perhaps the leaders themselves aren't giving this counsel nearly as often as the members themselves are giving each other.

That is precisely what I was thinking. However, I'm still not sure it answers everything since the leaders in fact come from the members themselves what with our layclergy and all.

Kind of a self-perpetuating counsel. I think I agree, as well. When I first expressed my concerns to my bishop a couple of years ago, I was told to lay aside the "anti-Mormon" stuff (which he described as "corrosive") and instead go to the temple, read my scriptures, and pray. I did that. Didn't change anything.

[_moksha]

I'm feeling rather small in my experience. I can count the countries I've visited on one hand: Mexico, Belize, Venezuela, Brazil, and Bolivia. But don't worry, I can still feel superior to some people.

Don't worry Runtu, I think the folks on Globe Trekker have traveled far more expensively than Dr. Peterson and Guy Sajer. Perhaps it is not exactly where you have been that counts, although I wish the two of them would post a few pictures. (Wouldn't it be nice to see Dr. Peterson in a bright Hawaiian shirt with a lei?). by the way, have they been to Antarctica?

[_guy sajer]

I'm feeling rather small in my experience. I can count the countries I've visited on one hand: Mexico, Belize, Venezuela, Brazil, and Bolivia. But don't worry, I can still feel superior to some people.

Don't worry Runtu, I think the folks on Globe Trekker have traveled far more expensively than Dr. Peterson and Guy Sajer. Perhaps it is not exactly where you have been that counts, although I wish the two of them would post a few pictures. (Wouldn't it be nice to see Dr. Peterson in a bright Hawaiian shirt with a lei?). by the way, have they been to Antarctica?

I stopped taking pictures years ago. I'd get home, develop them, and then nobody wanted to look at them. I just tossed them in a box and forgot about them.

In the digital camera age, I probably ought to start taking some pictures again, but then I still don't think there's too many people out there all that interested.

Perhaps we could have a party in which we all bring pictures and pass them around, kind of like a missionary slide party. Dan could bring the chips, Runtu could bring the salad, Tarski could bring the main course, and I'd, of course, bring the brewskies with an O'Doul's for Dan (Does Dan drink O'Doul's, or is this affecting "the appearance of evil?". Why anyone would equate drinking a frosty one with evil is ludicrous, but, sigh, some do. If there is a heaven, I'm convinced it'll have a nice, smooth amber on tap.)

[_Arnold Friend]

The appropriate follow-up question is: Do those members who were warned against reading anti-Mormon literature have a right to feel upset when they learn that they were really just being warned against learning the unpleasant truth about the Church?

[_KimberlyAnn]

I'm feeling rather small in my experience. I can count the countries I've visited on one hand: Mexico, Belize, Venezuela, Brazil, and Bolivia. But don't worry, I can still feel superior to some people.

Don't worry Runtu, I think the folks on Globe Trekker have traveled far more expensively than Dr. Peterson and Guy Sajer. Perhaps it is not exactly where you have been that counts, although I wish the two of them would post a few pictures. (Wouldn't it be nice to see Dr. Peterson in a bright Hawaiian shirt with a lei?). by the way, have they been to Antarctica?

I stopped taking pictures years ago. I'd get home, develop them, and then nobody wanted to look at them. I just tossed them in a box and forgot about them.

In the digital camera age, I probably ought to start taking some pictures again, but then I still don't think there's too many people out there all that interested.

Perhaps we could have a party in which we all bring pictures and pass them around, kind of like a missionary slide party. Dan could bring the chips, Runtu could bring the salad, Tarski could bring the main course, and I'd, of course, bring the brewskies with an O'Doul's for Dan (Does Dan drink O'Doul's, or is this affecting "the appearance of evil?". Why anyone would equate drinking a frosty one with evil is ludicrous, but, sigh, some do. If there is a heaven, I'm convinced it'll have a nice, smooth amber on tap.)

I'll come and bring cupcakes for dessert. I'll save an unlicked one for Dr. Peterson.

KA