Will September Dawn drive chapel Mormons to research more?

[_Doctor Steuss]

BOTH!

Me: "Hey, did you know Joseph Smith married other mens wives"
TBM: "Oh, wow, I never knew that. Oh well. Hey, are you going to the BYU game?"

Agree... and guilty (I don't really care all that much about the Book of Abraham debate. I know that I should, but it just doesn't interest me).

[_Scottie]

I guess my question is, how much impact will the movie really have? It's hardly in any type of "blockbuster status". Frankly, the only advertising I've really seen for it is on these boards!

Since it's more of an independent film, and not in the same league with "Spiderman 3", "Harry Potter 5", "Pirates of the Caribbean", etc., I don't know how much of a "splash" it's going to make except with those academics who really want to know about it.

They have been playing trailers in the theaters in Utah County for about a month now. But, yeah, to a TBM, I'm sure the trailers come off as anti. After all, it DOES shed a negative light on the church.

[_Inconceivable]

I guess my question is, how much impact will the movie really have? It's hardly in any type of "blockbuster status". Frankly, the only advertising I've really seen for it is on these boards!

Since it's more of an independent film, and not in the same league with "Spiderman 3", "Harry Potter 5", "Pirates of the Caribbean", etc., I don't know how much of a "splash" it's going to make except with those academics who really want to know about it.

They have been playing trailers in the theaters in Utah County for about a month now. But, yeah, to a TBM, I'm sure the trailers come off as anti. After all, it DOES shed a negative light on the church.

The Blockbuster I'm talking about is the video store on the corner - the movie will be available for $3 anytime, forever.

Brokeback Mountain was a dismal failure at the boxoffice - not just in Utah County but throughout the world. But the fact that it won all sorts of at-a-boys from the industry that produced it set it to the forfront in all of the video stores. There are a lot of things people will watch in their own home that they would feel quite uncomfortable in public.

"Passion of the Christ" would be another example where Mormons would be less likely to be seen walking into the R rated movie, but would rather watch it more discretely.

They'll have to watch it in order to know in what context their NM's are asking or accusing them.

[_Mister Scratch]

And plus, we all know how big of a role gossip plays in LDS communities.

How much of a role does it play contrasted with other communities? Any idea?

Will such questions drive critics of Mormonism like Scratch Senior to do any research?

Dr. Peterson has a point here.

Most tight-knit communities have problems with gossip. The reason the LDS Church is prominently "called out" for this is because it is an extremely large tight-knit community.

I think that Church gossip is also "called out" because it is institutionalized, and used to punish people. These "whisperings"---loaded with scorn and petty judgmentalism---wind up going into people's permanent Church files, or end up at the SCMC. The gossip within the Church is especially pernicious, imho. It just isn't equivalent to, say, gossip at a high school, where yeah, someone may get shamed out and/or depressed. Gossip in the Church can totally ruin a person's life, it can result in the loss of career, family, community, etc.

[_barrelomonkeys]

And plus, we all know how big of a role gossip plays in LDS communities.

How much of a role does it play contrasted with other communities? Any idea?

Will such questions drive critics of Mormonism like Scratch Senior to do any research?

Dr. Peterson has a point here.

Most tight-knit communities have problems with gossip. The reason the LDS Church is prominently "called out" for this is because it is an extremely large tight-knit community.

I think that Church gossip is also "called out" because it is institutionalized, and used to punish people. These "whisperings"---loaded with scorn and petty judgmentalism---wind up going into people's permanent Church files, or end up at the SCMC. The gossip within the Church is especially pernicious, imho. It just isn't equivalent to, say, gossip at a high school, where yeah, someone may get shamed out and/or depressed. Gossip in the Church can totally ruin a person's life, it can result in the loss of career, family, community, etc.

WHOA! Church files? :O

[_Daniel Peterson]

I think that Church gossip is also "called out" because it is institutionalized, and used to punish people. These "whisperings"---loaded with scorn and petty judgmentalism---wind up going into people's permanent Church files, or end up at the SCMC.

How does Scratch Senior know about these "permanent files" or about what sort of data is possessed by the ominous, Gestapo-like SCMC that so troubles his fevered imagination?

I don't believe a word of what he claims above. I have absolutely no reason to regard it as true, and, as a currently-serving bishop with access to these supposed "files," considerable reason to regard it as false.

The gossip within the Church is especially pernicious, imho. It just isn't equivalent to, say, gossip at a high school, where yeah, someone may get shamed out and/or depressed. Gossip in the Church can totally ruin a person's life, it can result in the loss of career, family, community, etc.

I'd ask for examples of this, but I suspect that the example that Scratch Senior would give would be the mythical Church-orchestrated smear-campaign against Mike Quinn in which I was supposedly a leading player but which, so far as I can tell, never existed.

This is pure paranoid fantasy.

When Scratch doesn't have his binoculars trained on my house and isn't going through my garbage cans looking for possibly embarrassing dirt, he's hunkered down hiding from the black helicopters overhead.

[_Mister Scratch]

I think that Church gossip is also "called out" because it is institutionalized, and used to punish people. These "whisperings"---loaded with scorn and petty judgmentalism---wind up going into people's permanent Church files, or end up at the SCMC.

How does Scratch Senior know about these "permanent files" or about what sort of data is possessed by the ominous, Gestapo-like SCMC that so troubles his fevered imagination?

Part of the reason I know is that you were clumsy enough to admit being an "agent" for the SCMC. But, in addition to that, we know that the SCMC makes tape recordings of speeches, maintains files on dissidents, stays in communication with a network of Church spies and security, including the student spies at BYU who monitor more liberal professors and conduct witch hunts for homosexuals.

I don't believe a word of what he claims above. I have absolutely no reason to regard it as true, and, as a currently-serving bishop with access to these supposed "files," considerable reason to regard it as false.

Further, we know from the CHI (at least, I think it's in the CHI), that certain things result in "instant annotation" on one's membership record. Thus, if there is report of homosexual activity from some stool-pigeon member, then this bit of petty gossip will go into a member's record, potentially setting him or her up for all kinds of personal harm. Surely as a Bishop, you know about these "automatic annotations." Right?

The gossip within the Church is especially pernicious, imho. It just isn't equivalent to, say, gossip at a high school, where yeah, someone may get shamed out and/or depressed. Gossip in the Church can totally ruin a person's life, it can result in the loss of career, family, community, etc.

I'd ask for examples of this, but I suspect that the example that Scratch Senior would give would be the mythical Church-orchestrated smear-campaign against Mike Quinn in which I was supposedly a leading player but which, so far as I can tell, never existed.

The smear campaign is a good example, and I have never said that you were "a leading player". (Sidenote: for someone who claims to be so "fed up" with the Quinn business, you sure do bring it up a lot. Nearly half a dozen times in the past 24 hours or so.) Further, over on the MADboard as we speak, there is a thread underway regarding "anonymous letters," in which some mean-spirited ward member sent an anonymous letter to the bishop, stating that another member gave crummy talks in sacrament meeting, apparently with the hope that the bishop would stop asking this member to talk in church. This isn't the sort exemplified by the Quinn thing, but it does pretty clearly demonstrate the cruel nature of LDS gossip.

This is pure paranoid fantasy.

When Scratch doesn't have his binoculars trained on my house and isn't going through my garbage cans looking for possibly embarrassing dirt, he's hunkered down hiding from the black helicopters overhead.

C'mon, Prof. P. You accuse me of being paranoid, and yet you are wetting yourself in fear about telling me who is in charge of the Maxwell Institute's website. How paranoid is that?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Part of the reason I know is that you were clumsy enough to admit being an "agent" for the SCMC.

I said that I once talked with a wavering member for several hours at the request of the secretary of the Strengthening Church Members Committee, who had been asked by the member's family if he could help. It was a pleasant and candid conversation. He came voluntarily, and he left when he felt like leaving.

You've asked several times whether I filed a "report" about our conversation. I've answered, just as often, that I didn't. I wasn't asked to do so; there was no follow-up communication at all.

That's it. Nothing about "files." Period.

But, in addition to that, we know that the SCMC makes tape recordings of speeches, maintains files on dissidents, stays in communication with a network of Church spies and security, including the student spies at BYU who monitor more liberal professors and conduct witch hunts for homosexuals.

We do? I don't know any of that.

Further, we know from the CHI (at least, I think it's in the CHI), that certain things result in "instant annotation" on one's membership record. Thus, if there is report of homosexual activity from some stool-pigeon member, then this bit of petty gossip will go into a member's record, potentially setting him or her up for all kinds of personal harm. Surely as a Bishop, you know about these "automatic annotations." Right?

I've seen absolutely nothing of the kind.

The smear campaign is a good example

It's your best example by far. And it's mythical.

Sidenote: for someone who claims to be so "fed up" with the Quinn business, you sure do bring it up a lot.

It's a parade example of your malevolent imagination.

Further, over on the MADboard as we speak, there is a thread underway regarding "anonymous letters," in which some mean-spirited ward member sent an anonymous letter to the bishop, stating that another member gave crummy talks in sacrament meeting, apparently with the hope that the bishop would stop asking this member to talk in church. This isn't the sort exemplified by the Quinn thing, but it does pretty clearly demonstrate the cruel nature of LDS gossip.

There is nothing uniquely LDS about such regrettable behavior.

You accuse me of being paranoid, and yet you are wetting yourself in fear about telling me who is in charge of the Maxwell Institute's website. How paranoid is that?

I'm not even slightly "afraid." I'm simply declining to assist you in your perpetual quest to malign believing Latter-day Saints.

I'm a realist. I know what you do.

[_Some Schmo]

I'd ask for examples of this, but I suspect that the example that Scratch Senior would give would be the mythical Church-orchestrated smear-campaign against Mike Quinn in which I was supposedly a leading player but which, so far as I can tell, never existed.

The smear campaign is a good example, and I have never said that you were "a leading player". (Sidenote: for someone who claims to be so "fed up" with the Quinn business, you sure do bring it up a lot. Nearly half a dozen times in the past 24 hours or so.)

I was just thinking the same thing this morning, Scratch. I'm starting to think DCP actually likes the smear campaign thing (he's probably glad he did smear ol' Quinn there for this reason alone), and is indirectly trying to get you and Rollo going on it again. He must really think we all give a crap.

[_Yoda]

Gossip in the Church can totally ruin a person's life, it can result in the loss of a career, family, community, etc.

Well, to be fair, it can only result in the loss of a career if you're stupid enough to work for the Church to begin with.

;)

Sorry...I didn't mean that to come out as a slam against Church employees and it did. What I'm trying to say is that if you choose to work for the Church, then you know what you're getting yourself into. And if you don't, then shame on you for not knowing. If you are an employee of the Church, then you are obligated to play by their rules. No one is forcing you to make that type of choice career-wise.