What Joseph Hath Wrought

[_Polygamy Porter]

Runtu,

You have detailed the very reason that I could never live in Utah.

It still is a theocracy just by the sheer numbers of them out there.

The place still oozes and smells the awful stench the garmented mindless masses fawning over their self righteous asses.

I honestly do not understand how you can even contain yourself. I'd go ber-f***ING-serk.

[_wenglund]

Clearly runtu made statements critical of the LDS church, but I see nothing that could rightfully be labeled "vile". You are unwilling to help us understand your viewpoint, which is your choice, but my reaction to this is that you are so enmeshed with your belief system that any criticism feels "vile", despite your former protests to the contrary.

You have given me considerable reason over the years to think you are incapable of understanding my point of view, and this spite of your absurd insinuations that you know better than me what I think and mean. Such is the nature of a sopalistic mind (i.e. one that is closed to opposing points of view). As such, I am quite confident that you would have reacted the same regardless of what I may have said. So, I see no reason to have wasted both our time trying.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

I am sorry that your return to Utah has engender such vile sentiments in you towards your former faith--at least enough to motivate you to share it in such harsh ways publically here.

It causes me to wonder, though, like with so many of Kimberlyann's posts, what value you expect to derive in saying these kinds of denegrating things. Do you suppose it will somehow make you a better person, or improve conditions generally? Is it born of love and intended to encourage mutual respect?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't see anything "harsh" or "vile" in Runtu's post. I agree with Harmony. I see his post as a pained reflection of a lost way of life. It is a post filled more with hurt and melancholy than anger.

In answer to your second series of questions, Wade, yes, I think that Runtu's posting his reflections will aid in making him a better person. Writing things down and discussing feelings is a form of recognition. How can you move forward if you can't recognize where you are? Posting what he is feeling is freeing, and allows him to not stay mired in his current state. He can discuss his feelings with friends, and move forward. Yes, it will improve his conditions generally, because he can't talk about how he is feeling at home. It will only upset his spouse. He has to have some outlet to talk about this stuff. He's already been diagnosed with depression, so keeping things buried inside is not a good idea.

Are his comments born of love and intended to encourage mutual respect? Yes, I believe they are. Runtu has never struck me as someone with a hidden agenda. His motives are very pure. He is simply reaching out to his friends. As far as mutual respect....Runtu has never personally attacked anyone for their belief. His wife is still LDS. He respects her right to believe what she will. He simply can no longer believe it because of the soul searching journey that he has made.

How's that for armchair psychology? ;)

In a word: upside-down. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_moksha]

Runtu, have you decided to settle in Provo rather than Salt Lake County? There certainly is something to be said about keeping drive time to a minimum, on the other hand, it is Utah County and has all the peculiarities that go along with it.

[_The Nehor]

Goddamn Nehor, sometimes you can be so f***ing stupid.

If you want to see the society that old humpin Joe was attempting to form, just drive northwest to Eldorado Texas where the FLDS are living the LDS theology as Joseph taught it.

Joseph today would tell you that you are living the life of a wretched apostate.

Really, they live as one, having no poor among them in perfect consecration with an educated, brilliant, and beautiful society that thrives on virtue....not according to what I've read.

[_moksha]

How's that for armchair psychology? ;)

In a word: upside-down. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, I think Runtu's sarcasm is related to his feeling a bit down and being in an environment he is not used to. I am sure that both you and I have felt out of sorts at times and when they occurred we would not like our words to be labeled as vile. Runtu no doubt has been both magnanimous and loving in other situations. To each his own is very true, but in the end we are all the shining Children of God.

[_wenglund]

I have been contemplating writing an essay (for posting here) entitled, "The Mormon Eunuch: Ecclesiastical Castration and the Feminization of LDS Men".

I am hoping to use Wade's touchy feely posts as source material. Now if only I could find the time and balls to do it.

As long as it takes a swipe at the Church or its members, you will find a sympathetic audience here--even among some of the LDS women participants. They will find some way to construe it as loving, healthy, and benefitial to all parties concerned. ;-)

Be careful though, if there is an unexpected outbreak of consistency you may be grilled mercilessly about whether you have the proper credentials to write such a paper. Some may even stridently test you on whether the essay has been peer-reviewed or not.

For my part, I will keep an open mind to what you may have to say. As a secure male, I welcome alternative points of view, even if they are little more than a baseless and pejorative sound bite.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Polygamy Porter]

Goddamn Nehor, sometimes you can be so f***ing stupid.

If you want to see the society that old humpin Joe was attempting to form, just drive northwest to Eldorado Texas where the FLDS are living the LDS theology as Joseph taught it.

Joseph today would tell you that you are living the life of a wretched apostate.

Really, they live as one, having no poor among them in perfect consecration with an educated, brilliant, and beautiful society that thrives on virtue....not according to what I've read.

Oh here you go again...

And please point to a block of time when such a society actually existed? (no Book of Mormon stories please)

[_The Nehor]

Oh here you go again...

And please point to a block of time when such a society actually existed? (no Book of Mormon stories please)

City of Enoch (Pearl of Great Price story)

Other than that, I don't know of any. But it was the society Joseph was commanded to build. If you choose not to believe in God then it was the society Joseph laid out for the Saints in his D&C. That we have no secular record of such a society does not mean it can't work.

[_wenglund]

How's that for armchair psychology? ;)

In a word: upside-down. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, I think Runtu's sarcasm is related to his feeling a bit down and being in an environment he is not used to. I am sure that both you and I have felt out of sorts at times and when they occurred we would not like our words to be labeled as vile.

The way I see it, there are functional and adaptive ways of responding to environments that we may not be used to, and then there are dysfunctional and maladaptive ways of responding. I believe Runtu uncharacteristically chose the latter in this instance. And, while it may be touching to excuse his bad behavior (or however one wishes to label it--the label is not what is important to me), I believe doing so does him and the object of his un-called-for derision a disservice. After all, he has done me the favor of holding me responsible for some of my "outburst" here when I have been "out of sorts", and has given me cause to repent and strive to do better. I think him worthy of no less.

Runtu no doubt has been both magnanimous and loving in other situations.

I whole-heartedly agree. In fact, I see that as a prevailing quality of his, and nothing I have said should be interpreted as suggesting otherwise. Infact, it is my high view of him that made his unkind comments so unexpected and piercing to me. Were it Mercury, or PP or Scratch who had said it, it wouldn't have phased me at all because it is consistent with the kind of people they are, and to be expected of them. But not Runtu. He is way better than that.

To each his own is very true, but in the end we are all the shining Children of God.

Amen.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-