KimberlyAnn Moves to Delphi...

[_Coggins7]

I would venture that, regardless of any personal experiences you might have had, you cannot KNOW that it was an encounter with god, just as I cannot KNOW that I'm living in a real, physical world and not merely a figment of my imagination. The only thing that we can truly KNOW is that we exist in some sense (with a nod to Descartes).

That is what you said, and these propositions have logical implications, do they not? I critiqued them under that assumption and found a number of interlocking logical contradictions, or inconsistencies in the implied argument you are making.

You and Kant can assert what you will, but your assertions must be part of a systematic belief system that is internally consistent.

[Guest]

Like Jersey, I want to know Coggins' evidence of his perfect certainty that God exists, that Jesus is the Christ and that the Mormon Church is what it claims to be. Not subjective evidence. How do you KNOW with a perfect certainty, Coggins?

KA

[_Coggins7]

already qualified that, Loran. Anything that cannot be attributed to chance, coincidence or simple subjectivity. That would be a good start, I think.

Then you will, of course, a priori, attribute revelation to simple subjectivity. I am helpless before such assumptions

Hence, I have no evidence.

[_Coggins7]

Like Jersey, I want to know Coggins' evidence of his perfect certainty that God exists, that Jesus is the Christ and that the Mormon Church is what it claims to be. Not subjective evidence. Real evidence. How do you KNOW with a perfect certainty, Coggins?

See my response to Jersey. If you are not willing, at least in theory, to explore, to test for yourself the means by which I claim to have received my knowledge, then I have no evidence to share with you.

You are immune to the verification available, just as one is immune to the effects of certain chemicals introduced into the body, while others would have a reaction. This immunity is self imposed, and is nothing for which I can offer hope of remediation.

You do not understand the Gospel KimberlyAnn, and I understand that you do not understand. The very fact that you repeatedly ask me for evidence of my knowledge of God and the Gospel bespeaks a serious misunderstanding of just what the Gospel is and how things of the Spirit work. I cannot know for you and I cannot pass on my knowledge to you as I could pass on my knowledge of martial arts or of political history. You and only you can know for yourself, or you willl never know. There is little reason to ask me for evidence because I have no way to pass to you that which lies inside my heart and mind.

Even if my life were a bed of roses on a daily basis, and my behavior was that of the holiest of human beings who ever lived, this would still only be indirect evidence of some kind of conversion and conviction, and people in other religions live righteously as well. The only way to know if the Church is true, or if God lives (and is as the Church teaches he is) is to ask him.

It is to ask him personally, intimately, and "with real intent, nothing wavering" as James said. Which begs the question: why are you asking me when you should be asking him these questions? Not that you shouldn't ask others about such things, but I think you've been asking and debating, and arguing for a long time now, and no answer is in sight.

With your present attitude, I have no answer I can give.

[_Jersey Girl]

already qualified that, Loran. Anything that cannot be attributed to chance, coincidence or simple subjectivity. That would be a good start, I think.

Then you will, of course, a priori, attribute revelation to simple subjectivity. I am helpless before such assumptions

Hence, I have no evidence.

Cop out.

[_Coggins7]

H

ow do you KNOW with a perfect certainty, Coggins?

Just one time: I know these things through the power of the Holy Spirit. I know them because God, who knows me by name, has revealed them to me through the principle and power of revelation. I have had intelligence distill upon me like the "dews of Heaven", and I have had the witness that accompanies the feelings and raining intelligence.

And these experiences will occur again.

[_Coggins7]

Cop out.

Precisely.

[_Jersey Girl]

H

ow do you KNOW with a perfect certainty, Coggins?

Just one time: I know these things through the power of the Holy Spirit. I know them because God, who knows me by name, has revealed them to me through the principle and power of revelation. I have had intelligence distill upon me like the "dews of Heaven", and I have had the witness that accompanies the feelings and raining intelligence.

And these experiences will occur again.

What you're saying, Loran, is that it "feels" like God exists.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Like Jersey, I want to know Coggins' evidence of his perfect certainty that God exists, that Jesus is the Christ and that the Mormon Church is what it claims to be. Not subjective evidence. Real evidence. How do you KNOW with a perfect certainty, Coggins?

See my response to Jersey. If you are not willing, at least in theory, to explore, to test for yourself the means by which I claim to have received my knowledge, then I have no evidence to share with you.

You are immune to the verification available, just as one is immune to the effects of certain chemicals introduced into the body, while others would have a reaction. This immunity is self imposed, and is nothing for which I can offer hope of remediation.

You do not understand the Gospel KimberlyAnn, and I understand that you do not understand. The very fact that you repeatedly ask me for evidence of my knowledge of God and the Gospel bespeaks a serious misunderstanding of just what the Gospel is and how things of the Spirit work. I cannot know for you and I cannot pass on my knowledge to you as I could pass on my knowledge of martial arts or of political history. You and only you can know for yourself, or you willl never know. There is little reason to ask me for evidence because I have no way to pass to you that which lies inside my heart and mind.

Even if my life were a bed of roses on a daily basis, and my behavior was that of the holiest of human beings who ever lived, this would still only be indirect evidence of some kind of conversion and conviction, and people in other religions live righteously as well. The only way to know if the Church is true, or if God lives (and is as the Church teaches he is) is to ask him.

It is to ask him personally, intimately, and "with real intent, nothing wavering" as James said. Which begs the question: why are you asking me when you should be asking him these questions? Not that you shouldn't ask others about such things, but I think you've been asking and debating, and arguing for a long time now, and no answer is in sight.

With your present attitude, I have no answer I can give.

Coggins, I was a Mormon for thirty-two years. A faithful, devout, temple-going, tithe-paying, scripture reading, praying, fasting on the first Sunday Mormon. I thought I knew the truth with absolute certainty, too. I was arrogantly sure of my faith. But I was completely wrong. I was fooled by my feelings. The hard truth is that no one can know God exists and revelation and spiritual feelings are completely unreliable. They may seem truer than truth itself and can indeed feel like "knowing", but they're not.

I was devastated when I learned that Joseph Smith married other men's wives. Completely sickened, Coggins. I would have sworn he would never do that. I felt the Book of Abraham was true, but look at the evidence against it! It's not true, but I wholeheartedly "knew" it was. We cannot know for certainty God's existence. You hope, believe and have faith. I understand that. But you cannot know and it's best that you do not think you can, because when you figure everything out and finally realize Joseph Smith lied and that God may be just a figment of your imagination, it will make it all the harder for you.

KA

[_moksha]

If anyone here does come up with a way of knowing the metaphysical rather than believing via a leap of faith, then you owe it to the world to write it up and submit it to numerous scholarly journals. Once confirmed by others, a press conference prior to your receiving the Noble Prize would be in order.