Science is not a belief system...

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I hang out in the student lounge of the physics department (or did last semester when I was in school), and those who would argue again the existence of God would use such arguments. However, I would like to answer the two statements you put forward (which I never heard either):


Ok, so this is your memory of the statements that were made. I suspect the summary you have given has been affected by your interpretation of the statements. You see this happen all the time online - someone makes a statement X, and the next person slightly modifies the statement while responding to it. When it's written online you can go back and reread the original statement to try and wash out the interpretative overlay, but you can't do this when you're going by memory.

The reason I'm pressing this issue is because an atheist who would assert "there is no God" would be called a strong atheist, and they are a tiny minority of atheists, as far as my experience is concerned. The vast majority of atheists I've interacted with are weak atheists, who don't assert something like "there is no God", but rather assert that they do not believe in any god. (atheists believe in one less god than you do)

Atheists tend to avoid making "strong atheist" statements because it is predicated upon proving a negative, and most atheists are aware of the problems in that stance.

150 years ago there was no evidence to necessitate the existence of quarks, but that doesn't mean that there is no such thing as quarks. It is okay at the time to say one did not believe in quarks, but the particle is a real thing. Furthermore, the statement itself is based upon a scientific process. Evidence is not deemed evidence to support a hypothesis unless it can be tested as such. Since things of spirituality are not testable by others to receive the same conclusion, then what may be evidence to one individual would not be considered as such to another.


The problem is that people have proclaimed the existence of God throughout all of human history, and anxiously attempted to prove that existence to skeptics. Were there any evidence that required the existence of a godbeing, it would be proclaimed by every believer on the rooftops. Instead, all we have are anecdotal experiences that also have possible naturalistic explanations. So to add the god component to the explanation instead of the naturalistic explanation is to add an incredibly complicated extraneous factor, which makes it highly unlikely.

In other words, people have been hunting down this particular quark (God) for a very long time with no success. Sooner or later one ought to admit that this lack of success means something.

Maybe I took it a step further than it normally goes, however, many will take that since the Bible is full of "errors" that it must be false, and since those who support the Bible support the idea of God, then God is probably false as well.. I for one see that creationism is describing evolution, so both are correct to me.


There are many, many people who are theists and believe in evolution, so I think this particular example of yours was very flawed and indicates that you are attempting to recreate what atheists said, totally by memory, and your memory is fallible. I am skeptical that atheists are running around making the assertions you attribute to them. I believe this is how you "hear" what atheists are saying, however.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

beastie wrote:The problem is that people have proclaimed the existence of God throughout all of human history, and anxiously attempted to prove that existence to skeptics.

That's the problem and one of my points. You cannot use "proof" to show that God exists. God is of the realm of spirituality whereby proof is irrelevant. It would be like saying, "I have discovered the graviton, but to see it yourself, you must use intuition and faith." Those concepts do not work in the field of science because (well), they are tools of spirituality.

There are those who do say, "I don't believe in God because there is no proof of Its existence," and they take the science approach of, "okay. So you think God exists? You must show proof. Prove that God exists." My reply back is that God is something you find by intuition and faith. A great example of this that many people have experienced is love...

Let's say you have Steve and Brenda who are madly in love and plan to marry. I can go to Steve and say, "do you love Brenda?" to which he replies, "yes." "okay, so you say you love Brenda. You must show proof you do."

He can say things like he is going to marry her, or he tells her he loves her, or a whole slew of other things, which can easily be copied (and have been) by other people to get what they want from other individuals, when (in fact) they did not love them. So their proof is not valid here since their proof can lead to two very different conclusions. The bottom line - one cannot prove that they love another. Does this mean that since they cannot that love does not exist? No, I would argue not, and that anyone who has been or is in love can attest to this. Those who are in love know from their intuition and "gut feelings" that they are in love and that they love the individual.

Regardless, love is a similitude to the idea of God. Just because one cannot prove the existence thereof does not mean that it does not exist. Just because mankind has attested to the ideas of love from the beginning of time and yet it has not been proven doesn't mean love does not exist either. God (just like love) isn't something that is proven to exist, it is something that intuition tells you is true. Then by acting upon this intuition, one can grow and learn more about the ideal.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Nephi... :-)

Maybe I took it a step further than it normally goes, however, many will take that since the Bible is full of "errors" that it must be false, and since those who support the Bible support the idea of God, then God is probably false as well..


I don't think this is quite how it goes! :-)

It is more like...

The Bible is filled with things that are very likely not true (talking donkey, world wide flood, six day creation, Adam and Eve, etc), so the Bible isn't what it claims to be (Word of God), unless God's word is filled with untruths.

Hence, the Bible is most likely NOT a good text upon which to base one's truth, or discover the word of God (unless God's word is filled with untruths).

;-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Just because mankind has attested to the ideas of love from the beginning of time and yet it has not been proven doesn't mean love does not exist either. God (just like love) isn't something that is proven to exist, it is something that intuition tells you is true. Then by acting upon this intuition, one can grow and learn more about the ideal.


And so... what if you intuition tells you God is not real? Or the Bible is not truth? Or Jesus is not talking to Joseph Smith? Or the prophets are not communing with God? Or God is not a man?

Ya know?

I'll just say, my experience is that the more I listened to my heart, followed my personal inspiration, allowed myself to believe what I felt was true, the more I disbelieved in organized religion.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

truth dancer wrote:
Just because mankind has attested to the ideas of love from the beginning of time and yet it has not been proven doesn't mean love does not exist either. God (just like love) isn't something that is proven to exist, it is something that intuition tells you is true. Then by acting upon this intuition, one can grow and learn more about the ideal.


And so... what if you intuition tells you God is not real? Or the Bible is not truth? Or Jesus is not talking to Joseph Smith? Or the prophets are not communing with God? Or God is not a man?

Ya know?

I'll just say, my experience is that the more I listened to my heart, followed my personal inspiration, allowed myself to believe what I felt was true, the more I disbelieved in organized religion.

~dancer~


See universalism.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

That's the problem and one of my points. You cannot use "proof" to show that God exists. God is of the realm of spirituality whereby proof is irrelevant. It would be like saying, "I have discovered the graviton, but to see it yourself, you must use intuition and faith." Those concepts do not work in the field of science because (well), they are tools of spirituality.


Proof may be irrelevant, but evidence is not. There is no reason to believe in something for which there is no evidence. That's why atheists come up with analogies like the flying spaghetti monster.

The only reason to believe in something for which there is no evidence is that you've been brought up to believe it, or you believe for reasons that have nothing to do with logic and reason, and everything to do with feelings.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

beastie wrote:
That's the problem and one of my points. You cannot use "proof" to show that God exists. God is of the realm of spirituality whereby proof is irrelevant. It would be like saying, "I have discovered the graviton, but to see it yourself, you must use intuition and faith." Those concepts do not work in the field of science because (well), they are tools of spirituality.


Proof may be irrelevant, but evidence is not. There is no reason to believe in something for which there is no evidence. That's why atheists come up with analogies like the flying spaghetti monster.

The only reason to believe in something for which there is no evidence is that you've been brought up to believe it, or you believe for reasons that have nothing to do with logic and reason, and everything to do with feelings.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster (which I absolutely loved) was in response to "intellegant design" being taught in schools. Evidence, though, requires proof to be "evidence". Otherwise what is it? Evidence is part of scientific research... note the following definition taken from wikipedia:

evidence is accumulated through observations of phenomena that occur in the natural world, or which are created as experiments in a laboratory. Scientific evidence usually goes towards supporting or rejecting a hypothesis.

Since God and spirituality are not of the natural world in the strictest sense, then evidence cannot be put forth to prove or disprove the existence of God anymore than I can prove or disprove I love my wife.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

well, then, why not believe in any and everything that the human mind can concoct?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

beastie wrote:well, then, why not believe in any and everything that the human mind can concoct?

Because, as I pointed out in the universalist thread, there is only one path for you, which is unique for you and you alone. Yes you can pick whatever you want, and yes you can learn alot from other religions and beliefs, but there is but one path for you.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I think proof implies something stronger than evidence, and instead implies an accumulation of evidence, or single pieces of evidence so certain that the likelihood approaches certainty.

At any rate, I love the ancient Maya. Their religion calls for human sacrifice. The gods sacrificed their lives in order to create human life, they spilled their blood for us, so we must return the favor and enable them to live with our blood. I guess that's my path. Since I doubt anyone will volunteer for this duty since the world is full of faithless heathens, I'll just have to draft people.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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