Mercury wrote:Venezuela really is the only country to kick out Mormons and other missionaries as far as I know.
Technically they weren't kicked out of Venezuela--the church pulled out the North Americans. Had they left them there, it was only a matter of time before Chavez expelled them.
As a result of pulling out the North Americans, the "work" in Venezuela has nosedived. From the Caracas Venezuela Mission website:
Presidente Nicolaysen (1996-1999) has asked me to relay the following messages to all alumni of the Venezueala Caracas Mission.
BAD NEWS: According to Pedro Larreal, CES director for the Caracas Mission area, the number of missionaries in each Venezuelan mission averages 50 to 70, and the leadership may be considering recombining some missions.
HOW YOU CAN HELP: There are no longer any domestic suit manufacturers in Venezuela. Virtually all new suits are imported. Store prices are too high for most to afford. Many of us have used suits and ties lying around that could be spruced up and used by young men in the Caracas mission. You might remember particpating in a similar program at Christmas time in 1996.
There are four missions currently in Venezuela, so that makes a whopping 280--at most--native Venezuelans serving missions. LDS.org says there are 138,000 Mormons in Venezuela.
The Nehor wrote:Our mandate is to take the Gospel to all the World. We're never told the world will accept it. We had to go there. We have and a few souls have been aided.
That's all well and good, but the current leadership brags about the numbers of members in the world, thus implying the world is accepting the "gospel".
You can't have it both ways--you can't say numbers aren't really important and have a cover of the Ensign announce "One Million in Mexico". You can't say that few will accept and then go around repeating Rodney Stark's pronouncements about Mormonism being the next world religion.
for what it's worth, I think your take is the scripturally correct one. Problem is some guys in suits in Salt Lake don't seem to agree.
I don't feel that it's a form of bragging. It's an upbeat thing that some members love. The world as a whole will not accept the Gospel. The Scriptures make that very clear. I don't know who Rodney Stark is but I doubt we'll ever match Islam or the rest of Christianity in numbers. Maybe we will. I hope we will.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I don't feel that it's a form of bragging. It's an upbeat thing that some members love. The world as a whole will not accept the Gospel. The Scriptures make that very clear. I don't know who Rodney Stark is but I doubt we'll ever match Islam or the rest of Christianity in numbers. Maybe we will. I hope we will.
I'm not sure it's so much bragging as it is explicit and implicit suggestion that the growth of the church is fulfilling prophecy. Are we to understand that stagnating growth rates are also a fulfilment of prophecy?
Rodney Stark was a sociologist who predicted huge growth rates into perpetuity for the church, making it the next great religion. His prediction was touted by church leaders as proof we were growing by leaps and bounds. Just go to library.LDS.org and search the magazines for "rodney stark" and you'll see what we mean.
In a recent article, a non-Latter-day Saint scholar gave a fresh and most interesting review of this Church and its unpredicted growth since its restoration 160 years ago. He described its growth as a “miracle” and an “incredibly rare event.” (Rodney Stark, “The Rise of a New World Faith,” Review of Religious Research, vol. 26, no. 1, Sept. 1984, p. 18.)
In 1842 the Prophet Joseph Smith, in answer to an inquiry from the editor of a Chicago newspaper, made the prophetic declaration that “the truth of God will go forth boldly, … till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.” (History of the Church, 4:540.)
During a brief period of weeks, we have witnessed some phenomenal changes in the world, particularly in the Eastern bloc countries, changes which God-fearing men attribute to the hand of the Almighty in bringing about His glorious purposes to fill the earth with the knowledge of the Lord. Walls have come down, gates have opened, and millions of voices have chorused the song of freedom! We rejoice in the dawning of a brighter day.
The news media have made the events in eastern Europe appear as a purely political revolution even though many of the oppressed have recognized it as a “religious renaissance” and have acknowledged the influence of divine intervention. (USA Today, 16 Mar. 1990, p. 13A.)
A very recent study by sociologist Rodney Stark of the Micro-Case Corporation recognizes the great religious movement that the Church has become in our day. He projects that based on past growth in membership, membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will reach 265 million by the end of 2080. 6 He writes: “We are observing an extraordinarily rare event. After a hiatus of fourteen hundred years, in our time a new world faith seems to be stirring.”
In a recent article, a non-Latter-day Saint scholar gave a fresh and most interesting review of this Church and its unpredicted growth since its restoration 160 years ago. He described its growth as a “miracle” and an “incredibly rare event.” (Rodney Stark, “The Rise of a New World Faith,” Review of Religious Research, vol. 26, no. 1, Sept. 1984, p. 18.)
In 1842 the Prophet Joseph Smith, in answer to an inquiry from the editor of a Chicago newspaper, made the prophetic declaration that “the truth of God will go forth boldly, … till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.” (History of the Church, 4:540.)
During a brief period of weeks, we have witnessed some phenomenal changes in the world, particularly in the Eastern bloc countries, changes which God-fearing men attribute to the hand of the Almighty in bringing about His glorious purposes to fill the earth with the knowledge of the Lord. Walls have come down, gates have opened, and millions of voices have chorused the song of freedom! We rejoice in the dawning of a brighter day.
The news media have made the events in eastern Europe appear as a purely political revolution even though many of the oppressed have recognized it as a “religious renaissance” and have acknowledged the influence of divine intervention. (USA Today, 16 Mar. 1990, p. 13A.)
A very recent study by sociologist Rodney Stark of the Micro-Case Corporation recognizes the great religious movement that the Church has become in our day. He projects that based on past growth in membership, membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will reach 265 million by the end of 2080. 6 He writes: “We are observing an extraordinarily rare event. After a hiatus of fourteen hundred years, in our time a new world faith seems to be stirring.”
Note in particular Haight's suggestion that Eastern Europe was a ripe field that had been prepared for the work and that it would contribute to the phenomenal growth to come.
Mercury wrote:Venezuela really is the only country to kick out Mormons and other missionaries as far as I know.
Technically they weren't kicked out of Venezuela--the church pulled out the North Americans. Had they left them there, it was only a matter of time before Chavez expelled them.
As a result of pulling out the North Americans, the "work" in Venezuela has nosedived. From the Caracas Venezuela Mission website:
Presidente Nicolaysen (1996-1999) has asked me to relay the following messages to all alumni of the Venezueala Caracas Mission.
BAD NEWS: According to Pedro Larreal, CES director for the Caracas Mission area, the number of missionaries in each Venezuelan mission averages 50 to 70, and the leadership may be considering recombining some missions.
HOW YOU CAN HELP: There are no longer any domestic suit manufacturers in Venezuela. Virtually all new suits are imported. Store prices are too high for most to afford. Many of us have used suits and ties lying around that could be spruced up and used by young men in the Caracas mission. You might remember particpating in a similar program at Christmas time in 1996.
There are four missions currently in Venezuela, so that makes a whopping 280--at most--native Venezuelans serving missions. LDS.org says there are 138,000 Mormons in Venezuela.
So in reality there are only 15000 Mormons in Venezuela.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
Mercury wrote:So in reality there are only 15000 Mormons in Venezuela.
I'd say you're close--lds.org lists 270 "congregations" in the country, so 15000/270 works out to around 56 per church unit. Some in major cities might be bigger, other outlying branches much smaller, but 56 active per unit is probably right.
I was a missionary in France from 79-81. We were one of the, if not THE, lowest baptizing mission in Europe. We were constantly berated for our lack of success, and told that our lack of faith and maybe even lack of obedience was the problem. The field was white already to harvest, we were told. We had no excuse. It was brutal and depressing.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
The Nehor wrote:I don't feel that it's a form of bragging. It's an upbeat thing that some members love. The world as a whole will not accept the Gospel. The Scriptures make that very clear. I don't know who Rodney Stark is but I doubt we'll ever match Islam or the rest of Christianity in numbers. Maybe we will. I hope we will.
I'm not sure it's so much bragging as it is explicit and implicit suggestion that the growth of the church is fulfilling prophecy. Are we to understand that stagnating growth rates are also a fulfilment of prophecy?
Rodney Stark was a sociologist who predicted huge growth rates into perpetuity for the church, making it the next great religion. His prediction was touted by church leaders as proof we were growing by leaps and bounds. Just go to library.LDS.org and search the magazines for "rodney stark" and you'll see what we mean.
We are fulfilling prophecy by expanding to all the world and then that's often tied into rejoicing over people joining the Church. The two are separate though.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
beastie wrote:I was a missionary in France from 79-81. We were one of the, if not THE, lowest baptizing mission in Europe. We were constantly berated for our lack of success, and told that our lack of faith and maybe even lack of obedience was the problem. The field was white already to harvest, we were told. We had no excuse. It was brutal and depressing.
Sorry to hear that, when I was in Europe North we were told, "Just remember that for every door you knock on in Copenhagen someone is getting baptized in Chile." We were the highest baptizing Mission in Europe North until the end of my Mission when Edinburgh passed us up.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo