Please give financial reports in Conference again

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_Yong Xi
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _Yong Xi »

Mahonri wrote:Publish the financial report once again. Not doing so looks as if someone is hiding something.


The Church's non profit and private status obviously allows it to withhold financial information from its' customers. Any organization of that size has had plenty of instances of financial malfeasance over the years. This includes the LDS Church. Companies this big are subject to embezzlement, gross financial mismanagement, diversion of money for personal uses, etc. The Church is no exception. How can this not happen on a fairly regular basis?

Members don't care, however.
_Equality
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _Equality »

The Nehor wrote:
Inconceivable wrote:If the widow's mite (considered a fast offering and not even a tithe) is required of the Mormon God, it would stand to reason that His legal administrators ought to painstakingly account (and be accountable) for each - and there is no proof whatsoever that they are (but on the contrary).


They are accountable to God and God only. God doesn't need itemized financial reports released where he can pick up a copy. One advantage of omniscience I suppose.


The Nehor, that's at least an honest argument: they are accountable not to the members who contribute (the way, say, a government is to taxpayers or the way a board of directors is to their shareholders). They are accountable to no man (and, of course, since this is Mormonism we are talking about, no woman). But here's a question for you: why are you more honest than the man millions of Mormons looked up to and admired for decades as the (at first putative, then actual) leader of the church, yea, even President Gordon B. Hinckley? Why didn't Brother Hinckley answer honestly the question put to him by the reporter in the interview quoted above? Why didn't he just give the honest answer that you just gave? President Hinckley knew that he didn't share financial information with contributors. Why would he be so deceptive? What was the need for it? Why not "stand for something," yea, even for the noble truth that the Brethren are above other men and accountable only to an invisible Bronze-Age Semitic sky god and not to their fellow brothers and sisters?
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _The Nehor »

Equality wrote:The Nehor, that's at least an honest argument: they are accountable not to the members who contribute (the way, say, a government is to taxpayers or the way a board of directors is to their shareholders). They are accountable to no man (and, of course, since this is Mormonism we are talking about, no woman). But here's a question for you: why are you more honest than the man millions of Mormons looked up to and admired for decades as the (at first putative, then actual) leader of the church, yea, even President Gordon B. Hinckley? Why didn't Brother Hinckley answer honestly the question put to him by the reporter in the interview quoted above? Why didn't he just give the honest answer that you just gave? President Hinckley knew that he didn't share financial information with contributors. Why would he be so deceptive? What was the need for it? Why not "stand for something," yea, even for the noble truth that the Brethren are above other men and accountable only to an invisible Bronze-Age Semitic sky god and not to their fellow brothers and sisters?


His was also an honest answer. In the area PP quoted, I understand it to mean that he doesn't want anyone outside the contributor knowing how much they contributed....on any level. The world doesn't need to know how much the stake or ward brought in and only I need to know how much I gave. When I give it it's gone. They can use it to lavishly decorate the Stake President's office, build a mall, build a Temple, invest in companies, use it for humanitarian aid, convert it into gold bullion and store it in a secret room in the Temple, or burn it on an altar. They have the keys to direct the use of the money. I don't. I don't get that revelation and my reasoning does not and never will Trump the revelation given to those who hold Priesthood keys. If they misuse sacred offerings they are accountable to God for it.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Equality
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _Equality »

I don't think the context of the question supports your interpretation, The Nehor. The reporter said that churches in his country "publish their budgets" to the public. And then he asks why the LDS church can't do it. In fact, the LDS church in England does have to do this to comply with the law there. But it only gives a picture of a very small sliver of the whole church pie. It's clear that the reporter was asking about the church's overall income and expenditures, not about revealing precisely how much Brother Snow from the Sandy 877th ward personally contributed. And in that context of revealing the church's overall budget for the world to examine, Hinckley gave an answer that implied the church does reveal budget information to the members who contribute but not to the outside world. Whether your contorted reading of the words is what Hinckley intended or not, the fact remains that he knowingly and intentionally misled the reporter and anyone who read that interview.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _Jason Bourne »

I and my wife paid when I should have just worked one less job, gone to my childrens' ball games and school plays, given them a vacation and new toys instead of yard sale crap. In the summer time, for the first 10 years of our marriage, every ward building's thermostat blew warmer than 76 degrees while our home set on the best days at 82.

If I had put the over $100,000 to the exchangers these past 24 years instead of giving it to a pack of idiots, my family would now by remarkably wealthy and capable of giving exponentially more to causes to make the world a better place.

I was a fool to have considered this time in my life some sort of test or right of passage, when I could have blessed my family and loved ones within my capacity.



While you may resent your payment to tithing that additional 10% would not have even started to do what you say it would above. You needed a second job to pay 10? I just don't buy it. $100,000 over 24 years is only $4166 per year. That would not begin to solce you money issues. Sure had you saved it in a nice retirement fund it might be substantial. But would you have done that or would it have disappeared in the cracks.

I can understand that the disaffected are bitter over what they gave. I just don't but that it was the root of all your money woes. And I bet you deducted it on your tax return so that 10% was more like 7% or 8%.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Mahonri wrote:I posted this because I am tired of watching the waste. Enoch, Utah asked members to sacrifice for a new Stake Center. They did with many BORROWING money to donate. They borrowed from the banks, paying interest on the borrowed money so the new Stake Center could be built. Then, a new Stake President was installed at the time of construction. He found that they have a bit over $10,000 too much. He decided to spend that amount upgrading the decorations/finish of his office. One Bishop said NO, that money was given for building the Stake Center, not for lavish decorations. The next week that Bishop was released, the new Bishop instructed he was not to have any callings. No explanation and no communication from then on. The SP's office was lavishly decorated.
I could name a half dozen others similarly done that I have personal knowledge of. Then there are those that take money for their own use. Thousands of $$$, but no police action is involved in complaints and prosecution. Wouldn't look good. The Church does not get the money back.




I think this is suspect as well. When did this happen. It has been decades since members were asked to contribute on a local level to the building of Church's. It is al funded from tithing from SLC. The SP does not control the budget and cannot spend extra money on an office. It is all controlled tightly from SLC even down to the art hung on the walls. Unless this was maybe 20 years I ago I am having trouble believing this as this is just not how it is done.
_moksha
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _moksha »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I'm against this. If Church members realized how much of their tithing money goes to support my yachts, my Alpine hideaways, my Bahamian retreat, my fleet of private jets, and my otherwise lavish Mopologist lifestyle, there would be widespread rebellion in the ranks.


But what if some office workers in the Corporation of the Presiding Bisopric did decide to embezzle. They could get away with it forever, because they audit themselves. Could this happen? Could human nature happen?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_The Nehor
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _The Nehor »

moksha wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:I'm against this. If Church members realized how much of their tithing money goes to support my yachts, my Alpine hideaways, my Bahamian retreat, my fleet of private jets, and my otherwise lavish Mopologist lifestyle, there would be widespread rebellion in the ranks.


But what if some office workers in the Corporation of the Presiding Bisopric did decide to embezzle. They could get away with it forever, because they audit themselves. Could this happen? Could human nature happen?


That's why they use independent auditors.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_moksha
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _moksha »

The Nehor wrote:
moksha wrote: But what if some office workers in the Corporation of the Presiding Bisopric did decide to embezzle. They could get away with it forever, because they audit themselves. Could this happen? Could human nature happen?


That's why they use independent auditors.


How do we know that?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_The Nehor
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Re: Please give financial reports in Conference again

Post by _The Nehor »

moksha wrote:
The Nehor wrote:That's why they use independent auditors.


How do we know that?


From the General Conference Report:

The Church Auditing Department has been granted access to all records and systems necessary to evaluate the adequacy of controls over receipts of funds, expenditures, and safeguarding of Church assets. The Church Auditing Department is independent of all other Church departments and operations, and the staff consists of certified public accountants, certified internal auditors, certified information systems auditors, and other credentialed professionals.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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