Orson and Sarah Pratt

[_Yoda]

Bumping this for Bob:

Bob...I'm really trying to understand what you meant by this statement:

The evidence seems to indicate that Sarah committed adultery with John C. Bennett, who claimed he was acting on behalf of Joseph Smith.We don't quite know the facts here, but it may be apparent that Sarah believed Bennett, and that for a while Orson believed that Joseph Smith was behind it.

Please clarify. Are you saying that Sarah had the affair with Bennett because she believed that Joseph wanted her to?

[_Runtu]

Please clarify. Are you saying that Sarah had the affair with Bennett because she believed that Joseph wanted her to?

As far as I can tell, you have two possibilities:

1. Sarah was sleeping with Bennett, and Bennett blamed Joseph Smith, resulting in Orson's disaffection from the church. Sarah lied about Joseph approaching her while Orson was away.

2. Sarah told the truth, and Joseph did in fact propose that she become his plural wife. When she refused and threatened to go public, church leaders invented the affair with Bennett.

In the first case, if she was sleeping with Bennett, what is the big deal? Joseph Smith was doing exactly the same thing with other women, so why would anyone suggest that Sarah sleeping with Bennett was worthy of condemnation? There seems to be a weird double-standard here.

In the second case, what Sarah claimed Joseph asked her is pretty close to what he asked other women, so what is the motivation to deny her testimony and simultaneously trash her?

The only difference I can think of is that Bennett's practice of "spiritual wifery" is said to have been unauthorized. But then why would anyone believe that someone who knew about Joseph's practice of plural marriage and was in the highest circles of church leadership would not have been taught the practice that others were?

[_badseed]

Sarah was bitter and an antimormon. Difficult to trust her side of the story as bob has proved.

And someone who is bitter and promormon is any easier to believe? Isn't bias just that regardless of which way it swings.

[_zeezrom]

Sarah never became reconciled and her children went on to become apostates; one son became a well known Sheriff, hunting and jailing polyg fathers. Your quote from Sarah came after Orson's death when she was even more unhappy when Brigham Young refused to grant her some sort of pension.

It isn't accurate to say that the charges were trumped up and that Sarah was defamed by Joseph Smith unless, of course, you choose to accept only one side of the story. In the end, because Orson came around, I believe that he saw problems with Sarah's story.

Sarah's grandchildren returned to the fold; Pres. Hinckley is a descendant.

Questions Mr. YBot: What was this pension issue with BY? Why would Sarah expect a pension? Was it because wives of apostles get retirement pensions? Why would BY refuse to grant this to her?

I'm not sure what side of the story to accept at the moment, but I'm inclined to believe that Joseph Smith did indeed propose marriage to Sarah. Orson "coming around" doesn't prove a single thing but show that he wanted into the club. Hell, he got a 16-yr old girl out of the deal!

Why do people say Sarah was anti-mormon? It sounds like she was anti-polygamy. Sounds like she had her wits about her. So far, I'm seeing a brave and moral woman here.

[Guest]

Sarah was bitter and an antimormon. Difficult to trust her side of the story as bob has proved.

And someone who is bitter and promormon is any easier to believe? Isn't bias just that regardless of which way it swings.

And you can't rehabilitate poor evidence by pointing to a totally unrelated example of poor evidence somewhere else.

Sarah's story appeared in an 1886 expose written by William Wyl. It is not in her own words, except as Wyl tells it. In this very same book, Wyl contends that Joseph Smith concocted the idea of plural marriage while languishing with LDS hookers in a brothel.

In this same book, Sarah is purported to have claimed that Joseph Smith and John C. Bennett participated in abortions in Nauvoo, and that Bennett performed abortions on Joseph's mistresses.

In this Wyl book Sarah claims to have told Joseph Smith III that Joseph Smith Jr. basically had affairs with married women, and that he split up the chores of having sex with single women with John C. Bennett. However, in his own book, Joseph Smith III denies having this conversation with Sarah, and instead JSIII recalls her saying: "No, Joseph; your father never said an improper word to me in his life. He knew better. . . . Your father was never guilty of an action or proposal of an improper nature in my house, towards me, or in my presence, at any time or place. There is no truth in the reports that have been circulated about him in this regard. He was always the Christian gentleman, and a noble man."

This hearsay account from Sarah came after Orson had died, after Brigham Young had denied her a pension, and after Sarah had sued Brigham Young in federal court to rescind a property deal that Orson had entered into during his lifetime. For years Orson and Sarah were estranged. Sarah was a big supporter of her son, Arthur Pratt, a deputy U.S. Marshal and famous anti-polygamy hunter. In an 1882 interview, Arthur Pratt said: "I am the son of my father's first wife, and had a mother who taught me the evils of the system."

Sarah was excommunicated while Orson was alive in 1874. She co-founded the Anti-Polygamy Society of Utah.

[_zeezrom]

However, in his own book, Joseph Smith III denies having this conversation with Sarah, and instead JSIII recalls her saying: "No, Joseph; your father..."

Would Joseph III have any reason to protect his family name? I think yes.

She co-founded the Anti-Polygamy Society of Utah.

Sounds like she really hated polygamy. Not sure what she thought about the church doctrine. The fact that she really hated polygamy tells me she must have had a really bad experience with it.

We don't know for sure what happened regarding the adultery accusation. But we do know Sarah's husband married a 16-yr old girl and that made Sarah really mad (because she was a sensible woman). She sounds more sensible than Joseph Smith. Too bad Sarah didn't play a bigger role in the restoration...

[_beastie]

Given how church leaders were willing to libel Martha Brotherton in the church newspaper, I would only believe that the Sarah Pratt affair accusation were true with serious, hard evidence.

[The Stig]

/snip/

Oh, my!

I cannot adequately express in words how amazingly entertaining you can be at times. I just sit back and laugh at the stuff you do. I've tried to avoid the GSTP™ as much as possible, but your antics keep drawing me back. I enjoy your character so much that I'm seriously considering writing you into the script (stage play) I've been authoring (on and off for a couple years now--I might finish it sometime before I die).

You've very quickly become the almost complete realization of what I had previously believed was nothing but a caricature. If I craft a composite character that incorporates both your and John Williams' salient attributes, it'll be just perfect.

I can't tell you how gratified I am when people like you leave the church.

Anyway, that's all. As much as I enjoy the show you put on, I've got better things to do right now. Carry on ...

[_beastie]

I can't tell you how gratified I am when people like you leave the church.

I'm gratified when people like zeezrom and runtu leave the church as well.

Even more gratifying is the sight of someone like you defending it.

[_Runtu]

I can't tell you how gratified I am when people like you leave the church.

I'm gratified when people like zeezrom and runtu leave the church as well.

Even more gratifying is the sight of someone like you defending it.

I wouldn't worry about Will. He's been making fun of me for a long time. He genuinely seems to enjoy watching people like me struggle, so it's natural that he'd latch onto zeezrom, as well. Hell, I don't even post much anymore, but Will's doing his damnedest to make sure no one forgets to stick another knife in. I don't get it, but that's Will.