Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

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_Cicero
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Cicero »

Aristotle Smith wrote:What makes it hard to believe in Joseph Smith is the fact that he screwed other men's wives, young teenage girls, refused to follow his own rules (see Word of Wisdom), set up secret societies, lied continually (see polygamy in Nauvoo), pretended to translate documents, sought for power and money, etc.


I like how apologists and "Thoughtful Faith" types like to gloss over all of that by saying that Joseph was a flawed human being like all the rest of us, which implies that the occasional dishonesty, envy, speaking in anger, and other almost universal human flaws are somehow equivalent to what Joseph Smith did.
_Darth J
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Darth J »

Smoot wrote: With the recent advent of easy access to the Internet, criticisms of the Church of Jesus Christ have been made widely available—though most remain retreads of the same tired, well-worn attacks that often date to the 1830s.


The other day I overheard a group of people claiming that Kevin Trudeau is a con man, because they found it difficult to believe that coral calcium from Japan is a miracle substance that comes just short of turning people into the gods of Olympus. I asked these critics how many of them had medical degrees or advanced degrees in pharmacology. The silence was telling.

Smoot wrote: "Many of the criticisms leveled against Joseph Smith’s vision apply equally well to Paul’s vision".


Many of the criticisms leveled against the reality of Zarahemla apply equally well to Middle Earth or Narnia.

Smoot wrote:Contrary to the façade fabricated by self-assured and insulated critics, cognitive dissonance is a two-edged sword that cuts both ways.


The explanatory power of a metaphor is somewhat lost when you have to explicitly state what your metaphor means.

Smoot quoting Reed quoting Todd Christofferson quoting Joseph Smith wrote: The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”


So when someone like, say, Brigham Young, gives a talk in conference in the Salt Lake Tabernacle in his capacity as president of the Church in the name of Jesus Christ about the nature of God, we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that he is speaking as a prophet.

The prophets do not claim infallibility, but some members unwittingly act as if that is the case and are then disturbed if the prophets do not measure up to that unrealistic standard.


"In our system of Church government, evil speaking and criticism of leaders by members is always negative. Whether the criticism is true or not, as Elder George F. Richards explained, it tends to impair the leaders’ influence and usefulness, thus working against the Lord and his cause." --Dallin H. Oaks, February 1987 Ensign
_Equality
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Equality »

Aristotle Smith wrote:Re Joseph Smith vs. Jesus

While we know a lot more about the details of Joseph Smith's life, I don't think that accounts for making it more easy to believe in Jesus than in Joseph Smith, though it is a popular meme among ex-Mos.

What makes it hard to believe in Joseph Smith is the fact that he screwed other men's wives, young teenage girls, refused to follow his own rules (see Word of Wisdom), set up secret societies, lied continually (see polygamy in Nauvoo), pretended to translate documents, sought for power and money, etc.

Jesus had the good sense to do none of this.

That is why it's easier to believe in Jesus, because he doesn't come off as a bastard (though ironically, the literal sense of the word fit him perfectly).


Well, that's what we don't know. All we have is the hagiography written by Christians, most (if not all) of whom never knew Jesus personally. So, we don't know if he was married. Or gay. Or if he screwed teen girls like Joseph Smith did. If Jesus had lived after Gutenberg, maybe we would have a different view of him--one more like what we have with Smith. Imagine if all the world knew about Smith was what the LDS Church put out in its "official" sources. (Not that hard to imagine--just go into any chapel on a Sunday morning and you can probably find some folks whose knowledge of Joseph Smith's life is informed only by church propaganda).
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
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_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Smoot wrote:On one particularly unpleasant message board dedicated to allowing apostates and critics to rant against the Church unfettered, breathtaking examples of (often highly vulgar) personal character assaults against LDS Church leaders and members can frequently be seen with nauseating consistency.


Look, I'm not a big fan of Mormondialogue.com either, but it's pretty unprofessional for Smoot to attack it like this.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

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_Chap
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Chap »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:Yea, that's it!
When comparing these two equal human beings, one simpyand only had a "great advantage" over the other.

Only at the MDB!

Peace,
Ceeboo


Chap makes a good point. We have a detailed record of Joseph Smith's adult life, whereas we have only the gospels to tell us about Jesus' life.


Thanks for getting the point!

Further, we have lots of material about Joseph Smith from people more or less contemporary with him who either did not care that much about him or who were openly critical. With Jesus, the only early material we have narrating his life (and that is widely held to be decades later than his death) is from a viewpoint that regards him with immense reverence, indeed open worship.

Just imagine we had notes from Pilate's court scribe giving detail of Jesus's trial even as sketchy as the reference to 'Joseph Smith, the glass looker'! Or some notes from the other side of his arguments with the Pharisees ... or even Judas's suicide note. What might we be able to tell about how Jesus was regarded by his contemporaries, and with what justification? But we don't.

So Jesus is on a home run right from the start. Of course it may be the Gospels have him right. But we really can't tell one way or another. With Smith, the picture is all too clear and well documented ...
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Morley
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Morley »

Darth J wrote:
Smoot wrote:Contrary to the façade fabricated by self-assured and insulated critics, cognitive dissonance is a two-edged sword that cuts both ways.


The explanatory power of a metaphor is somewhat lost when you have to explicitly state what your metaphor means.



Smoot fails to recognize that any given metaphor is a Ciceronian Sword of Damocles that hangs over the throne of the king of said metaphor--always threatening to break the horse hair of reason in order to plunge into his heart. And by plunging into his heart, I mean to defeat his own argument; you know, sort of cutting through the in vitro heart of the matter, so to speak, as matter qua matter.
_harmony
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _harmony »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Smoot wrote:On one particularly unpleasant message board dedicated to allowing apostates and critics to rant against the Church unfettered, breathtaking examples of (often highly vulgar) personal character assaults against LDS Church leaders and members can frequently be seen with nauseating consistency.


Look, I'm not a big fan of Mormondialogue.com either, but it's pretty unprofessional for Smoot to attack it like this.


Ummm... yeah. What he said.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Gadianton
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Gadianton »

Doctor Scratch wrote:What's more, our material is actually new.


Wait, are you saying the review of Ash is recycled?
_Shiloh

Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Shiloh »

Ceeboo wrote:Hey Chap :smile:

Chap wrote:
Jesus' great advantage is that he is a good deal less easy to lose faith in, partly because we know so much less about him than we do about Joseph Smith.


Yea, that's it!
When comparing these two equal human beings, one simpyand only had a "great advantage" over the other.

Only at the MDB!

Peace,
Ceeboo


Mr. Boo:

Mr Chap was speaking in terms of historical analysis. Analyzing a person's life that was born less than 200 years ago is much easier -- you know, due to newspapers, journal entries, and general societal literacy -- than analyzing the life of a person who lived over 2000 years ago and barely gets a mention in sources outside the letters of Paul and the Gospels.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey Shiloh :smile:

Shiloh wrote:Mr. Boo:

Mr Chap was speaking in terms of historical analysis. Analyzing a person's life that was born less than 200 years ago is much easier -- you know, due to newspapers, journal entries, and general societal literacy -- than analyzing the life of a person who lived over 2000 years ago and barely gets a mention in sources outside the letters of Paul and the Gospels.


Yes, as others have pointed out to me as well, I see your point and agree with it.

I stand corrected and do offer my apology to Chap (Man, that was hard to type) :smile:

Peace,
Ceeboo
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