Bazooka wrote: Seriously? You think that is a direct comparable to the Mormon process of tithing? There is no hope for you being able to make a sensible alternative contribution to this discussion.
Percentages do not matter. One must give to the poor if one wishes to be a good muslim and it must be a certain percentage. And in germany if one wishes to remain in the catholic church, one must pay the catholic church tax.
And yet on the catholic forum there are antimormon catholics moaning about the Mormon tithe and hoping that Monson needs to go to europe. Now are they a little off on their own catholic faith?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Bazooka wrote: Now, in the interest of full disclosure - how often to you attend the Mormon Church?
Are you ready? Are you sure that you can handle it? Every sunday. But I don't pay tithing and I have no callings. And all is well. My choice, my free agency.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
We are also anxious to see the church offer assurances about the position with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs of members and former members who now feel, as we do, that our tithing and other offerings were obtained by the church under false pretenses. For every pound paid to the church by LDS members in the UK who, (following leadership counsel), have availed themselves of Deeds of Covenant and Gift Aid, £0.20 has been added by the British Taxpayer to the church’s bank accounts. The sum paid out by HMRC in this connection must now amount to tens of millions of pounds. It is understood that in most cases the resulting tax rebates made to individuals, were handed over to the church at its request. We seek an assurance from the church therefore, that in the event that at some future time these payments made by HMRC will be deemed to have been fraudulently obtained, the LDS church will offer immunity to those individuals, and ensure that such sums as were rebated will be returned with the due interest to HMRC.
This part of the statement I found interesting. I really wish these guys would focus on their best arguments, and leave the RfM-style Exmo rants out of the legal process.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The lds church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Bazooka wrote: Now, in the interest of full disclosure - how often to you attend the Mormon Church?
Are you ready? Are you sure that you can handle it? Every sunday. But I don't pay tithing and I have no callings. And all is well. My choice, my free agency.
You are criticising people for challenging the legitimacy of their tithing payments when you yourself do not pay tithing. You are attending Church and utilising their facilities without contributing either financial support or with your time and effort. How ironic that you called me the hypocrite...
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
We are also anxious to see the church offer assurances about the position with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs of members and former members who now feel, as we do, that our tithing and other offerings were obtained by the church under false pretenses. For every pound paid to the church by LDS members in the UK who, (following leadership counsel), have availed themselves of Deeds of Covenant and Gift Aid, £0.20 has been added by the British Taxpayer to the church’s bank accounts. The sum paid out by HMRC in this connection must now amount to tens of millions of pounds. It is understood that in most cases the resulting tax rebates made to individuals, were handed over to the church at its request. We seek an assurance from the church therefore, that in the event that at some future time these payments made by HMRC will be deemed to have been fraudulently obtained, the LDS church will offer immunity to those individuals, and ensure that such sums as were rebated will be returned with the due interest to HMRC.
This part of the statement I found interesting. I really wish these guys would focus on their best arguments, and leave the RfM-style Exmo rants out of the legal process.
I tend to agree.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
We are also anxious to see the church offer assurances about the position with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs of members and former members who now feel, as we do, that our tithing and other offerings were obtained by the church under false pretenses. For every pound paid to the church by LDS members in the UK who, (following leadership counsel), have availed themselves of Deeds of Covenant and Gift Aid, £0.20 has been added by the British Taxpayer to the church’s bank accounts. The sum paid out by HMRC in this connection must now amount to tens of millions of pounds. It is understood that in most cases the resulting tax rebates made to individuals, were handed over to the church at its request. We seek an assurance from the church therefore, that in the event that at some future time these payments made by HMRC will be deemed to have been fraudulently obtained, the LDS church will offer immunity to those individuals, and ensure that such sums as were rebated will be returned with the due interest to HMRC.
This part of the statement I found interesting. I really wish these guys would focus on their best arguments, and leave the RfM-style Exmo rants out of the legal process.
I'm not sure I quite understand what this means. Is it a fancy way of saying tithing is tax deductible? Or does the government actually pay money to Mormons who pay it to the church?
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
2 a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
Remember this when you admitted your beliefs do not match your deeds regarding Mormonism.
The above definition forgets one issue: honesty. I have been honest. I not have hidden my beliefs. I may act in contradiction but people know it. I don't pretend to be something that I am not.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
We are also anxious to see the church offer assurances about the position with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs of members and former members who now feel, as we do, that our tithing and other offerings were obtained by the church under false pretenses. For every pound paid to the church by LDS members in the UK who, (following leadership counsel), have availed themselves of Deeds of Covenant and Gift Aid, £0.20 has been added by the British Taxpayer to the church’s bank accounts. The sum paid out by HMRC in this connection must now amount to tens of millions of pounds. It is understood that in most cases the resulting tax rebates made to individuals, were handed over to the church at its request. We seek an assurance from the church therefore, that in the event that at some future time these payments made by HMRC will be deemed to have been fraudulently obtained, the LDS church will offer immunity to those individuals, and ensure that such sums as were rebated will be returned with the due interest to HMRC.
This part of the statement I found interesting. I really wish these guys would focus on their best arguments, and leave the RfM-style Exmo rants out of the legal process.
Brad Hudson wrote:I'm not sure I quite understand what this means. Is it a fancy way of saying tithing is tax deductible? Or does the government actually pay money to Mormons who pay it to the church?
I don't know how it works, either, but it looks like (from poking around on Google for about five minutes) the UK tax system is such that when individual UK taxpayers make donations to a charity, the charity can get a portion of the individual's income tax payments back. Looks like there are forms to fill out and certain requirements that have to be met by both donor and charity. I think what they are saying is that HMRC has been defrauded as a result of the Mormon church's fraud on its members. This is the hook that helps make sense of the magistrate's decision to issue the summons. I don't think the UK court gives a hoot about the seven items listed in the summons--but it might care about allegations that the church has been taking money from the Treasury through getting its members to make donations and fill out Gift Aid forms on those donations.
(I am still very skeptical of the whole endeavor here; I am just saying that the MP tax evasion allegations, and the Gift Aid system that is different from U.S. tax laws make it more interesting).
Edited to add: I see aznative has posted on this subject in another thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33118
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The lds church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Yeah, I did some googling, too. Interesting wrinkle. Here, once can say the government subsidizes the religion because the tithing is tax deductible. There, the support seems more direct because the individual can have the government pay at least part of the deduction directly to the church.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
