LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

[_maklelan]

Yes. The Ensign is published by the Church, hence it is official doctrine.

That's pure and utter nonsense. I work for the Church's publication department, and there's no such standard attached to Church publications by anyone at all involved with it on any level.

[_Tobin]

Yes. The Ensign is published by the Church, hence it is official doctrine.

That's pure and utter nonsense. I work for the Church's publication department, and there's no such standard attached to Church publications by anyone at all involved with it on any level.

Yes, but welcome to the bcspace's world view. There is something magical about putting things in print by the Church. It makes it official in his mind. Maybe it is because he can touch it and that makes him feel funny all over. Or maybe it is just what he says that makes me laugh.

[_Bazooka]

Yes. The Ensign is published by the Church, hence it is official doctrine.

That's pure and utter nonsense. I work for the Church's publication department, and there's no such standard attached to Church publications by anyone at all involved with it on any level.

Well...except for this....

With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... n-doctrine

[Guest]

The official Church position remains....

An Ensign article written by Don Parry constitutes "The official Church position"?

When apostle and prophet-to-be George Albert Smith said this in the April 1918 General Conference (right hand page, top of the inside column):

[The Lord] saw the futility of working with them because they were wilfully in the hands of the adversary, and so he covered the earth with a great flood, gathering just a little handful of people to re-people the earth, because it t was necessary that good men and good women should transmit to posterity the virtues that they inherited when they were created in the spirit world.

…was that the official church position?

When Anthony Ivins of the First Presidency said this in the October 1922 General Conference:

Again the Lord sent his prophet to warn the people, and rescue them from the power of Satan, who held them in bondage. Noah, who was the son of Lamech, who was the son of Methuselah, who was the son of Enoch, went among the people prophesying that except they renounced their allegiance to Satan, and returned to the Lord they would be utterly destroyed. Again the message fell upon deaf ears, only Noah and his sons, and their families being saved when the windows of heaven were opened, land the floods covered the earth.

Thus the first effort made by the Lord to teach his children the plan by which they might be redeemed, and brought back into his presence, had 'failed, so far as the great majority was concerned, one thousand five hundred and fifty years after they had been placed upon the earth.

After having witnessed this great manifestation of the power of God, and the result which is inevitable to those who follow after Satan, for he sooner or later leads people to death, one would think that the lesson would always be remembered. Noah and his sons went out from the ark humbled and convinced, for they had witnessed the destruction of their race, but the lesson was soon forgotten. Two hundred and fourteen years after the ark rested on Mount Ararat the people were again traveling in the broad road which leads to destruction. They had again turned from the worship of the true God to the worship of idols.

…was that the official church position?

When the Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley said this in the October 2005 Priesthood Session of General Conference:

I do not hesitate to say that this old world is no stranger to calamities and catastrophes. Those of us who read and believe the scriptures are aware of the warnings of prophets concerning catastrophes that have come to pass and are yet to come to pass.

There was the great Flood, when waters covered the earth and when, as Peter says, only “eight souls were saved” (1 Pet. 3:20).

If anyone has any doubt concerning the terrible things that can and will afflict mankind, let him read the 24th chapter of Matthew.

…was that the official church position?

When Parley P. Pratt said at Conference in 1853 (page 11, left hand column, halfway down):

It was many, many centuries before Christ lived in the flesh, that a whole generation, eight souls excepted, were cut off by the flood. What became of them? I do not know exactly all their history in the spirit world. But this much I know—they have heard the Gospel from the lips of a crucified Redeemer, and have the privilege of being judged according to men in the flesh.

…was that the official church position?

In the Tabernacle on April 17, 1870, when Brigham Young said (page 313 of the text, not the PDF, bottom of the right hand column):

What are His commandments to us? Has He commanded us to build an ark? No. He told Noah to do that for the salvation of those who would go into it; and after he had built it, and had preached righteousness for a long space of time, warning the people of the coming judgments of the Almighty, how many believed his testimony? Only eight souls, and they were members of his own family. All the rest were swept from the face of the earth. This is according to the account given to us in the Old Testament which we believe. I know that there are a great many in the world who are so wise in their own eyes that they are not disposed to believe the account contained in the Bible of the Creation, of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, the antediluvian world and other things, but we profess to believe, and we do or should believe these things.

…was that the official church position?

In the Tabernacle on July 20, 1883, when Wilford Woodruff said (page 238 of the text, not the PDF, left column, towards the bottom):

He went forth as he was commanded and preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its purity and truth. He was commanded to build an ark on dry land. The people laughed at him and would not believe his testimony. For one hundred and twenty years he warned the inhabitants of the earth of the coming flood; but all that he could save were the members of his own family, some eight souls. The flood came, and all the inhabitants of the earth, save those who had entered the ark, were drowned.

…was that the official church position?

When N. Eldon Tanner of the First Presidency said in the Priesthood Session of the October 1974 General Conference

You all know the story of Noah and the ark, wherein we find that all the people in the world, excepting eight souls, were destroyed because they refused to listen to or accept the teachings or warnings of the Lord.

…was that the official church position?

What I see is a consistent teaching of a universal flood taught by the highest leaders of the church. What basis is there to claim that a universal flood is not the official position of the church?

EDIT: Corrected the year of Parley P. Pratt's statement.

[Guest]

The official Church position remains....

An Ensign article written by Don Parry constitutes "The official Church position"?

FLOOD AT NOAH’S TIME
See also Ark; Noah, Bible Patriarch; Rainbow
During Noah’s time the earth was completely covered with water. This was the baptism of the earth and symbolized a cleansing (1 Pet. 3:20–21).

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/gs/flood ... e?lang=eng

[_maklelan]

Well...except for this....

With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... n-doctrine

But you deleted the very next sentence: "This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." That's where doctrine is constituted. The Ensign contains doctrine just like my refrigerator contains eggs, but the Ensign no more determines or constitutes doctrine than my refrigerator creates eggs. Good grief, this is not difficult.

[_Tobin]

When Parley P. Pratt said at Conference in 1953 (page 11, left hand column, halfway down):

Wow, Parley P. Pratt was still alive in 1953? Maybe there is something to this Mormonism after all.

[_maklelan]

No, but what he wrote reflects the official Church position.

FLOOD AT NOAH’S TIME
See also Ark; Noah, Bible Patriarch; Rainbow
During Noah’s time the earth was completely covered with water. This was the baptism of the earth and symbolized a cleansing (1 Pet. 3:20–21).

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/gs/flood ... e?lang=eng

The Guide to the Scriptures is not official doctrine, and calling it the "official Church position" doesn't really mean much.

[_Tim the Enchanter]

When Parley P. Pratt said at Conference in 1953 (page 11, left hand column, halfway down):

Wow, Parley P. Pratt was still alive in 1953? Maybe there is something to this Mormonism after all.

Oops. 1853. I'll correct it.

[_Bazooka]

With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... n-doctrine

But you deleted the very next sentence: "This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." That's where doctrine is constituted. The Ensign contains doctrine just like my refrigerator contains eggs, but the Ensign no more determines or constitutes doctrine than my refrigerator creates eggs. Good grief, this is not difficult.

And the doctrine on the flood that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications is....that the flood really happened, that it was a global flood that covered the whole planet and that everyone and everything died that wasn't on the ark. You're right, that's not difficult to see.