The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

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_grindael
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _grindael »

"If I Only Had A Brain"

I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain

I'd unravel every riddle
For any individ'le
In trouble or in pain

With the thoughts I'd be thinkin'
I could be another Lincoln
If I only had a brain

Oh, I could tell you why
The ocean's near the shore
I could think of things I never thunk before
And then I'd sit and think some more

I would not be just a nothin
My head all full of stuffin'
My heart all full of pain
Perhaps I deserve you
And be even worthy erve you
If I only had a brain

I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only
If I only had a brain
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Themis
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:
Themis wrote:IF is not the discussion. Like I said, I can make up an IF for anything.The discussion is about whether something is true. You are just stating the obvious about any IF. IF God exists and IF the JW are his church then we must be JW to be saved. So what? This is just stating the obvious if/then and does nothing to answer the real questions about whether God exists and whether JW is God's church. If the Book of Mormon has a basis in fact then Joseph really did translate gold Plates. So what? No one is arguing against an IF because it is just an obvious statement of if/then. The real discussion is about whether the Book of Mormon has any facts to support it, not about if it has a basis in fact. Why not join the real discussion about whether the text actually mentions others or not?
Yes, we are discussing whether something is true. But we really can't discuss that unless we decide IF, or more appropriately, whether the assumptions we are making have a reasonable basis. And of course you can make any assumption you wish. That isn't my point. My point is whether we can agree that our assumptions are reasonable and thereby possibly true.


We don't need to make any ifs. People already understand that if the Book of Mormon has a basis in fact then God exists and Joseph translated gold plates and a real migration from the middle east happened. What we need to do is look at whether something really happened or not. To do that we look at the claims and see if the evidence fits. In this case we look at the text of the Book of Mormon to see if it fits with the evidence we have of the world around us. We see a world in which there was no global flood and people have lived all over the Americas for thousands of years before Lehi's claimed migration. This means people would have been there when they arrived, so does the text mention these other people. This is the challenge. I don't see anywhere the text mentions other groups. I do see the text mentioning a lack of other groups.

Now, the question you asked is does the Book of Mormon have facts or more appropriately, is it possible it is true?


Nope. It's true or it isn't. So we look to see if the facts support it being true or not.

That depends on whether you agree with the assumptions.


We don't need to agree or disagree. We can just look to see if the evidence supports a claim or not. I am still waiting for support from the Book of Mormon text that supports others being mentioned that were not from the 3 claimed migrations.
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_DarkHelmet
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Tobin wrote:
Themis wrote:Adding IF doesn't do anything to help here. We could add IF to anything we want like Bigfoot, crop circles, Leprechauns, etc. So what? The idea here is to figure out if something like the Book of Mormon is made up or not. So we have to see what the text says. Reality is apologists have been asked to show where the Book of Mormon says others and have never done so. The only others mentioned by the text come from one of the three groups said to have arrived from the Old world. The text fits into the world of a global flood. Why do you think so many members, especially in the past, believed the America's were devoid of any humans when the jaredites arrived in the Book of Mormon story. It's just another big piece of evidence that supports Joseph having made the story up. IF's do nothing. Maybe all those Bigfoot sightings really were a Bigfoot IF Bigfoot really exists.
Actually, IF has a lot to do with the Book of Mormon. After all, it is all based on the premise of IF THERE IS A GOD (or more appropriately god-like beings). The Lehites (and Jaredites) could not have possibly come to the Americas unless that IF is an acceptable possibility. Otherwise, there is really nothing for you to discuss here.


You don't have to believe in God to believe ancient people had mythology that they wrote down. Atheists believe the Old Testament is a true ancient Jewish record. You don't need to believe the stuff in the Old Testament really happened to believe it is an ancient record of an ancient group. We all studied Greek Mythology in school, and we all believe they are true ancient writings by real ancient Greeks. If the Book of Mormon was real mythology of an ancient race of people, there is no need to believe in God to know that.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Themis
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _Themis »

DarkHelmet wrote: If the Book of Mormon was real mythology of an ancient race of people, there is no need to believe in God to know that.


Unlike the other examples, it is very related to God existing. It's hard to come up with an answer to How Joseph could have created a record of a real people without God existing.
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_I have a question
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _I have a question »

Let's return to our seminary lessons shall we....

In 2 Nephi 1:9, the phrase “this land” refers to the Americas. What did the Lord promise to the obedient who would live in “this land”?

https://www.LDS.org/manual/book-of-morm ... 2?lang=eng

2 Nephi 1:8,9 reads....
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land the Americas should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land Americas, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land the Americas; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land the Americas unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land the Americas, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land Americas of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/2-ne/1.9?lang=eng#8

So the official position, as taught in Seminary, is that the Americas ("the land") was kept and would be kept from all other nations.

Official sources, official teachings, official explanation.

I do believe that's Game Over for "the others" apologetic.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Jaybear
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _Jaybear »

I have a question wrote:Let's return to our seminary lessons shall we....

In 2 Nephi 1:9, the phrase “this land” refers to the Americas. What did the Lord promise to the obedient who would live in “this land”?

https://www.LDS.org/manual/book-of-morm ... 2?lang=eng

2 Nephi 1:8,9 reads....
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land the Americas should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land Americas, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land the Americas; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land the Americas unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land the Americas, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land Americas of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/2-ne/1.9?lang=eng#8

So the official position, as taught in Seminary, is that the Americas ("the land") was kept and would be kept from all other nations.

Official sources, official teachings, official explanation.

I do believe that's Game Over for "the others" apologetic.


Apologists = Heretics.

Heresy: Heresy is any provocative belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

Brigham Young would have thrown them out of Utah, or worse, as heretics, had they espoused the theory that the Americas had been populated by an Asian migration across an ice age land bridge some 10,000 years before Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden.
_Tobin
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _Tobin »

DarkHelmet wrote:You don't have to believe in God to believe ancient people had mythology that they wrote down. Atheists believe the Old Testament is a true ancient Jewish record. You don't need to believe the stuff in the Old Testament really happened to believe it is an ancient record of an ancient group. We all studied Greek Mythology in school, and we all believe they are true ancient writings by real ancient Greeks. If the Book of Mormon was real mythology of an ancient race of people, there is no need to believe in God to know that.
The difference is we didn't get the myths of the Jews from their God, or the myths of the Greeks from their gods.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Tobin
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _Tobin »

Themis wrote:Nope. It's true or it isn't. So we look to see if the facts support it being true or not.
As I've said before, I don't like your narrow-minded binary thinking. That is why I don't really like discussing anything with you or find what you have to say remotely interesting. The world isn't as simple as you naïvely pretend and I think your views are frankly and rather pathetically childish.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Themis
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:
Themis wrote:Nope. It's true or it isn't. So we look to see if the facts support it being true or not.
As I've said before, I don't like your narrow-minded binary thinking.


You must not like yourself then. The Book of Mormon is either about a real people or it's not. Don't make the mistake of thinking I am asserting everything written in the Book of Mormon has to be 100% accurate. Since we know other people were here long before this claimed group then they would have come across others shortly after arriving. Does the Book of Mormon text mention this? Does the text not mention this? Does the text say there was no one here? I don't see where the text mention others, and I do see where it mentions others not being here.

That is why I don't really like discussing anything with you or find what you have to say remotely interesting.


Only because you make faulty assumptions of what I am saying and don't seem to understand many of the concepts myself and others are talking about.

The world isn't as simple as you naïvely pretend and I think your views are frankly and rather pathetically childish.


I agree the world is not simple, and I can see how someone may view ideas over their head as childish. :wink:
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_Brackite
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Re: The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

Post by _Brackite »



From That Article:

In the 5 April 1929 general conference of the church, Anthony W. Ivins, first counselor in the First Presidency, urged: "We must be careful in the conclusions that we reach. The Book of Mormon teaches the history of three distinct peoples . . . who came from the old world to this continent. It does not tell us that there was no one here before them. It does not tell us that people did not come after. . . . We do believe that other people came to this continent."41




However, Here is this full Quote in its actual context:

We must be careful in the conclusions that we reach. The Book of Mormon teaches the history of three distinct peoples, or two peoples and three different colonies of people, who came from the old world to this continent. It does not tell us that there was no one here before them. It does not tell us that people did not come after. And so if discoveries are made which suggest differences in race origins, it can very easily be accounted for, and reasonably, for we do believe that other people came to this continent. A thousand years had elapsed from the time the Book of Mormon closed until the discovery of America, and we know that other people came to America during that period.


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"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
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