Only one female speaker at General Conference this weekend

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_Xenophon
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _Xenophon »

MsJack wrote:CARM's information is wrong. All early references from Origen refer to Junia as female. It was only in a very late manuscript (9th century or so) that it was switched to male. Some complementarian scholar found the late Origen reference and began claiming that Origen said she was male, then everyone uncritically followed suit. I'll get my sources later.

Epiphanius of Salamis is the one who called Priscilla a man in the exact same passage, so his testimony is garbage. I'm not surprised CARM doesn't mention that.


Jack, glad to see you posting, especially when feeding Zerinus his lunch. You will have to forgive him as he doesn't understand how far out of his depth he is.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Markk
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _Markk »

MsJack wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:One only has to spend a few moments watching conference to understand why the younger generation is leaving in droves.

I seem to recall reading somewhere, isn't retention among young women even worse than retention among young men?

If 17-year-old me (young Gen X / old millennial) was bothered by this stuff in the late 90s, I can't imagine the reaction among young millennials & digital natives.

This was the first General Conference since Hillary Clinton's defeat and the Women's March. It would have been a good time to reaffirm that women are valued and wanted.


They don't call it Mormanism for nothing.
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _Fence Sitter »

MsJack wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:One only has to spend a few moments watching conference to understand why the younger generation is leaving in droves.

I seem to recall reading somewhere, isn't retention among young women even worse than retention among young men?

If 17-year-old me (young Gen X / old millennial) was bothered by this stuff in the late 90s, I can't imagine the reaction among young millennials & digital natives.

This was the first General Conference since Hillary Clinton's defeat and the Women's March. It would have been a good time to reaffirm that women are valued and wanted.


When they lowered the age of women I predicted several long term affects (and still do) that the church is not going to like.
1. They will eventually have more women missionaries than men.
2. The age at which youth get married will be even later than it is now with fewer children in those families.
3. Last and worst of all for the old boys club that is desperately trying to keep leadership to old white guys, they are creating a large group of young mature women in the church who have been on missions where they learned they were every bit as capable as the boys (in my opinion they are more capable at the same age) in the same roles. These women are going to want more than just
to sit back in ward councils nodding their heads to what ever male leadership tells them to do, they are going to want to be part of the decision making process.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_MsJack
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _MsJack »

Xenophon wrote:Jack, glad to see you posting, especially when feeding Zerinus his lunch. You will have to forgive him as he doesn't understand how far out of his depth he is.

He's obviously just now Googling the matter.

zerinus ~ From Eldon Jay Epp, Junia: The First Woman Apostle, p. 33-34:

-----------------

Earlier I asserted and provided some evidence that Junias . . . cannot be documented in the Greco-Roman world, at least to date---a view shared by many other recent writers on the subject. This assertion is made in spite of two exceptions that have been alleged: (1) that Junias was mentioned by Origin according to Rufinus's Latin translation of his commentary on Romans, and (2) that Epiphanius (315-403) thought of a male figure. However, every time these are mentioned---even by those whose views would benefit from such an identification---the claims are either dismissed or reasons to be cautious are cited.

Fortunately, in the case of the alleged reference to Junias in Rufinus's Latin translation of Origen's commentary on Romans, we now have the complete critical edition (except for the Greek fragments) by the late Caroline Hammond Bammel, with Origen's comments on Romans 16:7 appearing in the volume published in 1998. This context contained three references to Andronicus et Iunia in In ep. ad Romanos 10.21, lines 1, 10, and 25; there are no manuscript variants in these cases other than the usual Iulia ("Julia") in two different correctors' hands of a single manuscript. The accusative case appears in lines 1 and 10: Andronicum et Iuniam, while the ablative occurred in line 25: Andronico et Iunia. A fourth reference occurred in 10.39, line 45, this time in the nominative case: Andronicus et Iunia, with the latter supported by two major manuscripts, W (eighth/ninth century) and R (ninth) and a member of a subgroup, E (twelfth); the variant Iulia was read by the twelfth century manuscript c. It is in this passage where the variant Iunias (nominative) occurred in two members of the subgroup of which E is a member, namely, f and e, both twelfth-century manuscripts. Hammond Bammel's critical text properly contains Iunia in all four instances---and on good authority, while Iunias is a variant in two out of three late manuscripts that belong to a single subgroup, grounds perhaps for asserting that this amounts really to one variant reading, not two.

In any event, this alleged exception can be dismissed as carrying little if any weight, and we can be confident that Origen read Rom 16:7 as "Junia." . . .

Finally, Rabanus Maurus ([c.] 776-856), quoting Origen, had "Junia" also and, in a section of Origen's commentary on Romans by Hraban of Fulda (780-856), which he took literally from Rufinus's Origen, the name Junia is to be read, not Junias.

. . . [Regarding the reference in Epiphanius,] Piper and Grudem themselves confess, in commendable candor, "We are perplexed about the fact that in the near context of the citation concerning Junias, Epiphanius also designates Prisca as a man mentioned in Romans 16:3, even though we know from the New Testament that she is a woman."

-----------

So no, Origen did not designate Junia as a man, and the reference from Epiphanius is highly unreliable. Outside of those instances, the earliest reference to man-Junia comes from the 13th century (!).

I find it kind of ironic that so many people who say they believe in gender essentialism and oppose the transgender movement are working so hard to give this poor woman a penis. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Guest on Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_zerinus
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _zerinus »

MsJack wrote:CARM's information is wrong. All early references from Origen refer to Junia as female. It was only in a very late manuscript (12th century or so) that it was switched to male. Some complementarian scholar found the late Origen reference and began claiming that Origen said she was male, then everyone uncritically followed suit. I'll get my sources later.

Epiphanius of Salamis is the one who called Priscilla a man in the exact same passage, so his testimony is garbage. I'm not surprised CARM doesn't mention that.

EDIT: the Origen variant was even later than I thought, 12th century, not 9th.
That is not the only issue, or even the main one. The main one is that the linguistic construct does not necessitate that he/she be an Apostle, in the same sense that Peter, James, or John were Apostles. We know that Jesus’ original Twelve Apostles were male. Others have been called apostles who do not fall into that category. Jesus is called an apostle in the New Testament (Heb. 3:1), but obviously not in the same sense. Barnabas is called an Apostle (Acts 14:14), but not in the same sense. “apostle” simply means “sent”. In that sense Jesus was an “apostle” because he was “sent” by the father. In the case of the original “Twelve,” the word Apostle becomes a special title for a particular office. Your insistence that Junia is an Apostle is biblically​ and linguistically ridiculous and silly in the extreme.
_Chap
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _Chap »

zerinus wrote: ... Peter, James, [and] John were Apostles. We know that Jesus’ original Twelve Apostles were male.


Except that the original Greek does not have the convenient feature of using upper-case to show a word is used in some special sense. So in koine you would have simply said:

zerinus wrote: ... Peter, James, [and] John were apostles. We know that Jesus’ original twelve apostles were male.


zerinus, shorn of upper-case As and Ts wrote:Others have been called apostles who do not fall into that category. Jesus is called an apostle in the New Testament (Heb. 3:1), but obviously not in the same sense. Barnabas is called an apostle (Acts 14:14), but not in the same sense. “apostle” simply means “sent”. In that sense Jesus was an “apostle” because he was “sent” by the father. In the case of the original “twelve,” the word apostle becomes a special title for a particular office. ...


That last sentence is true in the CoJCoLDS. Can we have some evidence, please, that it was the case amongst the early group of followers of Jesus?
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_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

zerinus wrote:You should blame Jesus for that. He never called any women to be his Apostles (or seventies even).
Where in the Bible are "seventies" referenced?
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_Lemmie
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _Lemmie »

zeri wrote:That is not the only issue, or even the main one. The main one is that the linguistic construct does not necessitate that he/she be an Apostle,...
Your insistence that Junia is an Apostle is biblically​ and linguistically ridiculous and silly in the extreme.

Wow, zerinus, as obvious as it is that you're getting your butt kicked by Ms. Jack's superior knowledge, this blatant attempt to change the question is even more obvious!

Come on. Just gracefully admit defeat and learn something for once. (And from a woman, no less! Miracles never cease for you, do they? )

MsJack wrote:I find it kind of ironic that so many people who say they believe in gender essentialism and oppose the transgender movement are working so hard to give this poor woman a penis. :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: Thanks for your posts in this thread, MsJack! Very enlightening.
_zerinus
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _zerinus »

Chap wrote:That last sentence is true in the CoJCoLDS. Can we have some evidence, please, that it was the case amongst the early group of followers of Jesus?
Yes. Firstly, although Jesus had many disciples, the term “apostle” was applied to a small subset of his disciples whose number was limited to 12:

Luke 6:

13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;


Secondly, the Twelve Apostles were ordained to be such, whereas the regular disciples were not:

Mark 3:

14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,


You did not need to be “ordained” to be a disciple. But you did need to be ordained to be an Apostle. And there were only Twelve of them at a time; whereas there were no upper or lower limit to the number of disciples.
_zerinus
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _zerinus »

Polygamy-Porter wrote:Where in the Bible are "seventies" referenced?
Luke 10:

1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
• • •
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
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