DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

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_Analytics
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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

Post by _Analytics »

sock puppet wrote:This possibility, the pious fraud one, has always troubled me deeply, more so than if JSjr was just your basic scammer. My interest in Mormon roots is not merely academic. I'm not fascinated by this character named JSjr any more than I am Jim Jones from 1978. There have always been and will always be Pied Pipers with charisma that others will be charmed into following.

My interest stems from the fact that I was BIC and essentially programmed to be a young LDS automaton. I did not get out of that rut until I was in my early 20s. To come to terms with and not regret my stolen youth, the one that the LDS teachings and culture stifled, I've wanted to learn about the Mormon scam and why it might be that 4 generation of my ancestors got hoodwinked into it and into remaining in it. Perhaps in understanding that I'll be less resentful towards the complicity of my ancestors with the LDS promoters to create that situation into which I would be BIC and in a deep LDS rut growing up, a rut that is difficult to escape for several reasons.

If JSjr was so ego centric and narcissistic as to believe his concoctions about existence and the future were real, then why didn't my ancestor that joined in the LDS church in Nauvoo see it for what was really going on? The fraud part of a pious fraud is, in my opinion, easier to spot than the conscious-less scalawag that himself knows it is all a farce.

So a pious fraud theory does nothing for my inquiry, because they are not merely academic. I suppose if I was the CaliforniaKid, a never mo that for some reason finds the Mormon movement interesting, I might be intrigued by the possibility that JSjr's fraud was of the pious variety. It may very well have been. He certainly seems to have had the requisite level of narcissism. Even if JSjr sincerely believed the crap he was spewing, it does not make that crap "true".

I'm in the same boat, although I didn't break out of it until my late 20's.

Apologists often ask the question about what were Joseph's motivations if not because of his sincerity (seemingly oblivious to how much wealth he did in fact have accumulated by the time he was assassinated). I think he was pretty sincere, although quite deluded and quite willing to embellish his stories for dramatic effect.

I think looking at it from the perspective of memes is helpful. There were the original ideas that Joseph Smith received from his environment of Christianity and folk magic. With his own creativity and charisma, he took those ideas and morphed them into the magic he was performing in the 1820's, with the hope that this would lead to making some money in book sales. The memes then evolved into something that became religiously compelling. They then morphed into something else when Smith's movement merged with Sidney Rigdon's, and then continued to spread and evolve into what we have today.

Yes, the world is full of scammers, narcissists, and dupes. But there are specific ideas or memes that people find compelling. Those memes evolve and spread. We know what the specific memes are of the various flavors of modern Mormonism. But when we trace the memes back to the decade before the church was even founded, what do they look like then? Apologists insist with a black-and-white view that Joseph Smith's life was accurately depicted in the dioramas and that his beliefs are basically identical to what the church now teaches. I find that view naïve. Mormonism evolved. I want to look at the evidence we have including the surviving memes and all of the old writings and reconstruct what was believed back then.
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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

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Water Dog wrote:Image

Exactly!
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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

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From reading big A's posts, I think we need to distinguish between two propositions: 1) Joseph Smith believed he was a fraud 2) Joseph Smith was a fraud.

Joseph Smith could have been thinking he was making the whole thing up and laughing himself to sleep at night while at the same time bringing to pass the will of God. God could put the blueprint in his head. The only way Joseph Smith could actually be a fraud, is if he wasn't endorsed by God. Since God can be the architect of any of his actions, then Joseph Smith can "stay in the picture" no matter what he did. That's good news for certain members of the forum.
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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

Post by _Jesse Pinkman »

What if Joseph fashioned a set of plates for "show" so that he could keep the real plates safely hidden?

If he really believed that the gold plates existed, he might have felt that fashioning a second set was something that was safe to be in the presence of others.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

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Gadianton wrote:From reading big A's posts, I think we need to distinguish between two propositions: 1) Joseph Smith believed he was a fraud 2) Joseph Smith was a fraud.

Joseph Smith could have been thinking he was making the whole thing up and laughing himself to sleep at night while at the same time bringing to pass the will of God. God could put the blueprint in his head. The only way Joseph Smith could actually be a fraud, is if he wasn't endorsed by God. Since God can be the architect of any of his actions, then Joseph Smith can "stay in the picture" no matter what he did. That's good news for certain members of the forum.

The mental processes of religious belief are complicated. Some people proudly say they never doubted. Some people said they spent years trying to believe until they finally figured it out, and now they KNOW the thing they were trying so hard to believe is true. Some people believe that you find a testimony by bearing it--the fake-it-'till-you-make-it approach. Other's tell a story that make people cry, and reason that what they thought was a lie must really be true, because everything that persuades people to do good and believe in Jesus absolutely must be true--you can be as certain of that as you are of the noon sun not being midnight black.

So when Joseph Smith was stringing this all together, what were the processes going on in his brain? The fraud emerged one day at a time--first he started telling his inspired stories, and then he was inspired to make some money off of it from writing a book. The book tells the story of people cycling between being good and being wicked, and the concept of a single organized church sponsored by God isn't really in the text. The main church that's there began when Alma decided to baptize himself and start a church. But belonging to such a church isn't required. Only faith, repentance, and baptism are required. But then some people wanted to join a church, so Joseph decided to start one. He was in the right place at the right time, and his church merged with Sidney Rigdon's.

Did he think he was committing a fraud? Or did he rationalize it, thinking to himself that the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God?

I think thoughts like that were dancing around in his brain, and I think he was quite capable of thinking that since the folks he talked to were sincerely inspired by what he said, he must really be a Prophet.
Last edited by Gladness on Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

Post by _Analytics »

Jesse Pinkman wrote:What if Joseph fashioned a set of plates for "show" so that he could keep the real plates safely hidden?


Like the real plates were hidden in the trunk of a tree, and some fake plates were on the desk under a cloth?

If the fake plates are ever found, I can see this theory gaining a lot of traction very quickly.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Analytics wrote:
Sincere question. Have you actually read her paper and tried to understand the evidence she lays out?


No I haven't. Unless I did years ago and spaced it off. I'm one of those uninitiated folks that I referred to. I need to play catch up. That's why I was curious whether or not you had engaged Smac on the other board...thinking that would help me out.

Regards,
MG
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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Analytics wrote:
Sincere question. Have you actually read her paper and tried to understand the evidence she lays out?


No I haven't. Unless I did years ago and spaced it off. I'm one of those uninitiated folks that I referred to. I need to play catch up. That's why I was curious whether or not you had engaged Smac on the other board...thinking that would help me out.

Regards,
MG


Thanks. The paper is well written and thought provoking--she's really looked at this deeply. What I've written here gives you an idea of what its about, although her take on it is probably a bit different than mine. She presents a lot of evidence to support her position.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Analytics wrote:
Joseph could have believed in the spiritual essence of the plates, in a literal ancient record, and in the thing he created out of tin all at the same time. If a priest can believe that the cracker he purchased from Cavanagh Altar Breads is literally the flesh of Jesus, why couldn't Joseph believe that the tin plates he cut up were "literally" an ancient record? The hypothesis is that for several years he knew he needed to write this story about the civilization he'd been imagining, and going through the process of creating the plates and then having them was the impetus he needed to get past his writer's block and actually write the book.

Granted, it is an odd way of looking at things.


It is. But I'm sure stranger and/or more unusual things have happened.

Looking at it from this perspective is almost as strange as the Moroni and the gold plates story. :smile:

Regards,
MG
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Re: DonBradley has a Q re: Taves' hypothesis

Post by _Jesse Pinkman »

Analytics wrote:
Jesse Pinkman wrote:What if Joseph fashioned a set of plates for "show" so that he could keep the real plates safely hidden?


Like the real plates were hidden in the trunk of a tree, and some fake plates were on the desk under a cloth?

If the fake plates are ever found, I can see this theory gaining a lot of traction very quickly.

That was my thought.
So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MDB.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MDB
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