mentalgymnast wrote:The Book of Mormon copyright mission to Canada was a failure. And revelation, in that case, was used as the reason for sending men on that mission. Other examples could be given where Joseph believed he WAS speaking as a prophet and others where he wasn't (Kinderhook Plates?)...and he knew it...even though others were thinking something otherwise. I am willing to cut him some slack and recognize that he, along with the rest of us, was a human...he had a learning curve to deal with as he received the things of God.
It was Joseph who said, by the way, that some 'revelations' were of God, some were of men, and some were of the devil. What a thing for a 'prophet' to own up to and admit.
Not when you realize he said that to explain why he got claimed revelation really wrong. Trying to muddy the water does not help you because now you never know what is suppose to be from God and what is not. If Joseph cannot tell the difference there is no way for you to. To be honest you would now have to consider things like the Book of Abraham as possibly from man, and after you look at the evidence, you are left with no other possibility.
That is why I'm reluctant to always put anything besides the scriptures into the limelight of 'revelation'. And even when it comes to canonized scripture I think that we need to resolve/decipher that which is the direct word of the Lord and that which has been filtered through the eyes/ears/mind of the translator and/or receiver of God's word/message.
Some years ago I did some contract work for a company that had a young Mormon as an employee. She knew that I had done work for NASA and one day asked me if I thought the Moon landings were real or faked.
I said I was quite sure they were real and that I had even met an astronaut who had walked on the Moon (John Young). She was convinced they were faked. I'm pretty sure it was because of Joseph's Quaker story.
The next day I brought in a roll of film that was a direct positive of negs taken while orbiting the Moon (given to me by a NASA friend) to show her.
She said that the images could have been faked.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Some years ago I did some contract work for a company that had a young Mormon as an employee. She knew that I had done work for NASA and one day asked me if I thought the Moon landings were real or faked.
I said I was quite sure they were real and that I had even met an astronaut who had walked on the Moon (John Young). She was convinced they were faked. I'm pretty sure it was because of Joseph's Quaker story.
The next day I brought in a roll of film that was a direct positive of negs taken while orbiting the Moon (given to me by a NASA friend) to show her.
She said that the images could have been faked.
You would not believe (or maybe you would) how many middle school students argue vociferously against the moon landing. Some at least know the conspiracy theory talking points, but many aren't even that sophisticated. I wonder why this particular conspiracy theory is so deep-seated?
I asked them how many people would have to be in on the conspiracy (offering help as needed so they could see the sheer number of Apollo program astronauts, support staff, scientists, technicians --- and then all of the Hollywood studio people and support staff who would know it was faked). I emphasized how long ago this was, and then --- how likely is it that not a single person from all of these people had ever (not even on their death bed) breathed a word of this? Especially among the non-NASA personnel.
It really is amazing how this conspiracy theory just won't die among some people.
Some years ago I did some contract work for a company that had a young Mormon as an employee. She knew that I had done work for NASA and one day asked me if I thought the Moon landings were real or faked.
I said I was quite sure they were real and that I had even met an astronaut who had walked on the Moon (John Young). She was convinced they were faked. I'm pretty sure it was because of Joseph's Quaker story.
The next day I brought in a roll of film that was a direct positive of negs taken while orbiting the Moon (given to me by a NASA friend) to show her.
mentalgymnast wrote: That is why I'm reluctant to always put anything besides the scriptures into the limelight of 'revelation'. And even when it comes to canonized scripture I think that we need to resolve/decipher that which is the direct word of the Lord and that which has been filtered through the eyes/ears/mind of the translator and/or receiver of God's word/message.
It is a juggling act.
If Joseph couldn't tell the difference how can you?
mentalgymnast wrote: That is why I'm reluctant to always put anything besides the scriptures into the limelight of 'revelation'. And even when it comes to canonized scripture I think that we need to resolve/decipher that which is the direct word of the Lord and that which has been filtered through the eyes/ears/mind of the translator and/or receiver of God's word/message.
It is a juggling act.
If Joseph couldn't tell the difference how can you?
I think he learned over time. As we do. Some better/faster than others. And for one reason or another some folks veer off course and don't really spend the time or effort to dig deep.
Themis wrote:Which ignores everything Joseph claimed and makes Joseph and God into dumb and dumber. Good job.
You know there's a bit more to it than simply calling out Joseph and God as being stupid. It seems to be the common lot of mankind to place restrictions/limits on how God works and the why's and wherefores as to how He goes about His business.
mentalgymnast wrote: I think he learned over time. As we do. Some better/faster than others. And for one reason or another some folks veer off course and don't really spend the time or effort to dig deep.
I think he learned over time. As we do. Some better/faster than others. And for one reason or another some folks veer off course and don't really spend the time or effort to dig deep.
You don't know if he learned over time. You are still avoiding how you can tell if Joseph couldn't. You avoid it because it presents huge problems for all of it. The death of believing things for which there is plenty of evidence against comes when one realizes they don't really know and want to know more then wanting what they believe to be true. Many never get there.
You know there's a bit more to it than simply calling out Joseph and God as being stupid.
I didn't call them stupid, you did. You just don't realize it.
It seems to be the common lot of mankind to place restrictions/limits on how God works and the why's and wherefores as to how He goes about His business.
I don't put on limitations. I just look at the evidence available as well as look to see if other claims like yours make sense. Based on Joseph's claims he would have to be pretty stupid to make those claims. God would have to be even dumber to go along. Why claim certain hieroglyphs mean this unless God is telling you, and why would God be that dumb to say something clearly not true and would make Joseph look like the an obvious fraud? It's not hard to understand if you are open minded enough. Do I accept the obvious evidence or do I make up other explanations that make no sense.
