BYU faculty and the Book of Mormon

[_Res Ipsa]

MG, when I purport to type what you said, I'll cut and paste your typing and use quotation marks or the little quote function thing. As I didn't use quote marks or the quotation function, I'm not purporting to repeat your words.

Do you see the "so" that I started out my post with? That's there to indicate I'm drawing a conclusion from what you said. It's fine to say my conclusion is wrong, but to suggest that any conclusions I draw are limited to the words you typed is childish.

So, let's look at your responses. Despite your claim, you didn't use the word "essential." Picky, I know, but live with the sword, die by the sword. Moreover, you used the parenthetical phrase "(essentially so)" with reference to aiding creation of an appearance that Smith was doing something more than getting the pure revelation independent of the plates that you described in your hypothetical. "Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Book of Mormon was given to Joseph Smith through revelation from God. No plates whatsoever."

Your use of the word "essential" is non-responsive to my description of that use as "misleading." If the revelation was independent of the plates, as you hypothesized, then using the plates to give the impression that something else was going on, as you also suggested, is misleading.

What is the "more" you would suspect?

Again, here is what you said: "Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Book of Mormon was given to Joseph Smith through revelation from God. No plates whatsoever. Not in the hill. Never constructed and/or written on by purported ancient prophets. "

How does that materially differ from "had nothing to do with the translation itself"?

[_canpakes]

Although we should remember that witnesses testified that the plates were right near...close enough to touch, at times.

Perhaps. But proximity seems to have had nothing to do with the translation process, so the plates possibly being merely nearby does not necessarily factor in to the conversation. Unless there seems to be a connection that can be examined?

Let it be said again...I think the plates were necessary. Even essential. But it wasn't essential that they were sitting right next to Joseph during the translation the whole time.

OK. Let's examine that at face value. Why is it a necessary or essential component of the translation process, in your opinion, for the plates to have been removed from wherever they were initially resting?

[_Res Ipsa]

Res Ipsa has already penned a sufficient response to this, but I'll add a few words.

I've already replied to him. If that isn't enough, go back and read my previous posts.

I've pretty much said what I wanted to say earlier.

But as is often par for the course, I apparently may not have been clear enough. Let it be said again...I think the plates were necessary. Even essential. But it wasn't essential that they were sitting right next to Joseph during the translation the whole time.

Although we should remember that witnesses testified that the plates were right near...close enough to touch, at times.

Regards,
MG

You've said stuff, but you haven't explained anything.

OK, you think the plates were essential. Why were they essential? Essential to exactly what?

[_candygal]

If the church has been transparent in history why did Joseph Fielding McConkie and Craig Olster simply dismiss the rock in the hat version in the year 2000.

http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/Rel121 ... 20BofM.pdf

"Thus, everything we have in the Book of Mormon, according to Mr. Whitmer, was translated by placing the chocolate stone in a hat into which Joseph would bury his head as to close out the light. While doing so he could see 'an oblong piece of parchment, on which the hieroglyphics would appear,' and below the ancient writing, the translation would would be given in English. Joseph would then read this to Oliver Cowdery, who in turn would write it. If he did so correctly, the characters and the interpretation would disappear and be replaced by other characters with their interpretation".

"Such an explanation is, in our judgement, simply fiction created for the purpose of demeaning Joseph Smith to undermine the validity of the revelations he received after translating the Book of Mormon. We invite the read to consider the following"

They then go into discrediting Whitmer. This is about 3/4 down the page.

And why would the rock in the hat translation "undermine the validity of the revelations he received after translating the Book of Mormon."

The church has hid nothing, These men obviously haven't been reading the Ensign. This matter was fully discussed at length in a 1 mm x 1 mm article printed in disappearing ink in the March issue of the 1970 Ensign. All they had to do was hold the magazine up to a mirror, while shining a blue colored flash light through the page, while holding the magazine sideways and sticking their middle finger up their nose at the exact stroke of midnight, during a full moon, when the the outside temperature is a crisp 43 degrees. Geez, I'm so sick and tired of all of you apostates claiming that the church has been hiding this information when its been there all along for you lazy bastards to read.

[_canpakes]

I'd like to add here that Res Ipsa and I are not twins separated at birth.

Were that the case, I'd be the much stupider twin, lol.

[_Res Ipsa]

I'd like to add here that Res Ipsa and I are not twins separated at birth.

Were that the case, I'd be the much stupider twin, lol.

It is also true that no one has ever seen us together...

[_mentalgymnast]

Why is it a necessary or essential component of the translation process, in your opinion, for the plates to have been removed from wherever they were initially resting?

Hi canpakes and Rep Ipsa. I don't know if you've gone through and read/studied the material at this site, but it might be helpful to you.

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -of-mormon

Here we read:

Another important consideration is that the presence of the plates helped confirm Joseph Smith’s revelatory claims. Anthony Sweat insightfully noted, “The Book of Mormon text didn’t just pass through Joseph’s trance-induced revelatory mind; its palpable relics passed through a clothing frock, hollowed log, cooper’s shop, linen napkin, wooden chest, fireplace hearth and barrel of beans.” According to Michael MacKay and Gerrit Dirkmaat, the plates were “in essence the body for the spiritual words that fell from Joseph Smith’s lips as he translated,” and they helped instill “confidence in the minds of Joseph and his family and friends” that his words were derived from an actual ancient record.

also:

Even though they most often lay covered and unused on the table, they provided a constant visual reminder of the Book of Mormon’s tangible reality. As King Benjamin taught, “O my sons, I would that ye should remember that these sayings are true, and also that these records are true. … and we can know of their surety because we have them before our eyes” (Mosiah 1:6)

I would recommend going through and looking at the information at this site if you haven't already done so.

Regards,
MG

[_Res Ipsa]

MG, that says nothing about why you claim the plates were essential or what they were essential for. All it says is they helped confirm the claims. It doesn’t say they were essential for anything.

So, again, why were they essential and what were they essential for?

[_mentalgymnast]

So, again, why were they essential and what were they essential for?

Hi Rep Ipsa. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree at this point. In multiple posts I've stated my opinion and those of others as to why the plates were essential and why they may not always have been in close proximity to the translators. Let me post one more extract from the Book of Mormon Central site I linked you to.

These insights—both practical and spiritual—suggest that rather than being unnecessary, the physical plates may have been essential to the translation process. The engraved characters copied from their pages helped strengthen the faith of Martin Harris and others. Their tangible reality was an ever-present reminder that Joseph’s words were derived from an actual record of ancient prophets. And their veiled presence meaningfully symbolized Jesus Christ’s full participation in the translation.

As Elder Jeffery R. Holland testified, “the reality of those plates, the substance of them if you will, and the evidence that comes to us from them in the form of the Book of Mormon is at the heart, at the very center, of the hope and testimony and conviction of this work that is unshakably within me forever.”

I will simply invite others to read through and consider the content of the article I linked to.

Regards,
MG

[_Res Ipsa]

OK, apparentialy essential to create the appearance that Smith was translating something when he wasn’t. A prop.