Three Questions (Split from, ‘Vogel Responds …’)

[Marcus]

So, the LDS position, in your opinion mg, is that while the Atonement may provide salvation for all, only Mormons who have ordinances done in the LDS temple and are obedient to specific Mormon covenants are eligible for "exaltation"?

No. I do think that temples are essential to the work of salvation/exaltation, however. Thus the vicarious work that will be performed for everyone that belongs to the family of Adam before the final judgement.

Regards,
MG

So your first word is No. But your actual answer to my question is Yes.

[MG 2.0]

No. I do think that temples are essential to the work of salvation/exaltation, however. Thus the vicarious work that will be performed for everyone that belongs to the family of Adam before the final judgement.

Regards,
MG

So your first word is No. But your actual answer to my question is Yes.

What I originally wrote.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

So yes, LDS teachings provide the means for salvation in regards to those that died without knowledge and/or opportunity…real opportunity…to hear and accept truth. So in this instance that you have laid out the person would indeed have the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel and repent. Vicarious or proxy baptism would put them in a situation where they would then be able to chose ‘option A’ and progress in receiving all blessings God promises the faithful.

There are instances in the New Testament where Jesus promises that those that come into the fold later in the day, so to speak, are eligible for the same blessings as those that were within the covenant relationship with God from the get go. Even if they did not have full access to the truth during their probationary stage of ‘eternal life’.

But if we have the truth and reject it while in this probationary state we become accountable for having rejected that portion of God’s truth that we could have received. At least that is what the scriptures seem to teach.

Sure, it seems unfair that some don’t have to do the work and/or make the sacrifices that those that are in a covenant relationship with God make as they walk in obedience to God’s law. They, by default, also live without the companionship of the Holy Ghost as their guide which may have ramifications during their mortal sojourn. They also live without the opportunity to live in familial covenant relationships and experience the joy that comes through serving the Lord within the context of family connections and associations.

But that’s not to say that they can’t live lives of purpose/joy/meaning. Those lives are absent of the contextual meaning that the gospel provides, however. What that looks like as one transitions into the afterlife vs. those that hear/accept/live the gospel when given the opportunity in this life…I don’t know.

What I do believe is that God has a plan custom fit for each of His children and that where much is given much is expected.

In the example that you gave this individual missed out on many of the joys and opportunities that are possible within the gospel covenant. Can they have these blessings later on as they learn the truth? Sure. But I have to wonder whether or not it will look the same as in those instances where individuals and families have learned and accepted truth when made available to them either through birth or through missionary work.

I do think that it all is rather complicated and convoluted with many contours and patterns that are above the pay grade of humans to try and decipher and figure out. I’m willing to leave the messy details in God’s hands and simply be grateful for the blessings and opportunities that have been given me as a member of the church.

And to leave the choices that others make between them and their creator.

Regards,
MG

Your view is more gracious than many Mormons. Many will say that the highest level of glory is not attainable for non-Mormons who aren’t temple sealed.

While I appreciate that view, I think that it leads to an inescapable conclusion. That Mormonism is not necessary. I can continue to live my life without it, and I’m happy to be proven wrong later and will have ample time to fix it.

If it turns out Mormonism is wrong, which it most likely is, then I’ve just saved myself a lot of time, money, and trouble.

It’s a kind of reverse pascal wager. If Mormonism is true, you’re good to not believe. If Mormonism is false, you’re also good to not believe. So it doesn’t make any sense to stick with it, unless you just enjoy throwing away thousands of dollars and your Sundays.

And if you believe in Pascal’s wager, you should believe in a religion which actually punishes you for not believing in it. So you are meaningfully covering your bases.

I suppose it’s a question of whether or not God might look at your resume and see your desires to horde money and time (unwillingness to sacrifice through faith) as being a plus or minus in moving forward within the gospel covenant.

But that’s between you and your maker.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Your view is more gracious than many Mormons. Many will say that the highest level of glory is not attainable for non-Mormons who aren’t temple sealed.

While I appreciate that view, I think that it leads to an inescapable conclusion. That Mormonism is not necessary. I can continue to live my life without it, and I’m happy to be proven wrong later and will have ample time to fix it.

If it turns out Mormonism is wrong, which it most likely is, then I’ve just saved myself a lot of time, money, and trouble.

It’s a kind of reverse pascal wager. If Mormonism is true, you’re good to not believe. If Mormonism is false, you’re also good to not believe. So it doesn’t make any sense to stick with it, unless you just enjoy throwing away thousands of dollars and your Sundays.

And if you believe in Pascal’s wager, you should believe in a religion which actually punishes you for not believing in it. So you are meaningfully covering your bases.

I suppose it’s a question of whether or not God might look at your resume and see your desires to horde money and time (unwillingness to sacrifice through faith) as being a plus or minus in moving forward within the gospel covenant.

But that’s between you and your maker.

Regards,
MG

If hoarding money counts as a negative mark the brethren are in serious trouble.

I am only following their example. No one seems to doubt that “the Lord will provide” more than they.

[MG 2.0]

I suppose it’s a question of whether or not God might look at your resume and see your desires to horde money and time (unwillingness to sacrifice through faith) as being a plus or minus in moving forward within the gospel covenant.

But that’s between you and your maker.

Regards,
MG

If hoarding money counts as a negative mark the brethren are in serious trouble.

I am only following their example. No one seems to doubt that “the Lord will provide” more than they.

As I said, this is between you and your maker. No amount of justification will suffice in trying to place blame for your actions on the perceived sins of another. We are each individually accountable to God.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, drumdude.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

If hoarding money counts as a negative mark the brethren are in serious trouble.

I am only following their example. No one seems to doubt that “the Lord will provide” more than they.

As I said, this is between you and your maker. No amount of justification will suffice in trying to place blame for your actions on the perceived sins of another. We are each individually accountable to God.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, drumdude.

Regards,
MG

With great power comes great responsibility. The brethren will be held accountable, if anything like the Jesus character from the New Testament is in control after we die.

I think Mormons need to get closer to Christ and farther from the brethren. They ignore Jesus at their peril.

[MG 2.0]

As I said, this is between you and your maker. No amount of justification will suffice in trying to place blame for your actions on the perceived sins of another. We are each individually accountable to God.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, drumdude.

Regards,
MG

With great power comes great responsibility. The brethren will be held accountable, if anything like the Jesus character from the New Testament is in control after we die.

I think Mormons need to get closer to Christ and farther from the brethren. They ignore Jesus at their peril.

First sentence. Agree
Second sentence. Agree
Third sentence. Not mutually exclusive. One can support the Brethren while continuing to follow Christ.
Fourth sentence. Agree

I think the Book of Mormon teachings in regards to ‘probationary state’ are applicable in this discussion. Also the parable of the lamps and the parable of the talents in the New Testament.

And again, since you seem to be ignoring it, I maintain that we work out our OWN salvation without judging and/or condemning others.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

With great power comes great responsibility. The brethren will be held accountable, if anything like the Jesus character from the New Testament is in control after we die.

I think Mormons need to get closer to Christ and farther from the brethren. They ignore Jesus at their peril.

First sentence. Agree
Second sentence. Agree
Third sentence. Not mutually exclusive. One can support the Brethren while continuing to follow Christ.
Fourth sentence. Agree

I think the Book of Mormon teachings in regards to ‘probationary state’ are applicable in this discussion. Also the parable of the lamps and the parable of the talents in the New Testament.

And again, since you seem to be ignoring it, I maintain that we work out our OWN salvation without judging and/or condemning others.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12

Regards,
MG

I personally prefer the words of Jesus to Paul:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

[MG 2.0]

First sentence. Agree
Second sentence. Agree
Third sentence. Not mutually exclusive. One can support the Brethren while continuing to follow Christ.
Fourth sentence. Agree

I think the Book of Mormon teachings in regards to ‘probationary state’ are applicable in this discussion. Also the parable of the lamps and the parable of the talents in the New Testament.

And again, since you seem to be ignoring it, I maintain that we work out our OWN salvation without judging and/or condemning others.



Regards,
MG

I personally prefer the words of Jesus to Paul:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Good council. All things should be ‘proved herewith’. While at the same time knowing that there is a certain degree/amount of faith that will be necessary.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I personally prefer the words of Jesus to Paul.

So does that mean that you disregard Paul’s teachings as being to ‘none effect’?

Why so selective as to only show preference to those writings attributed to Jesus but not Paul?

Regards,
MG