If plates then God

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huckelberry
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Re: If plates then God

Post by huckelberry »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:01 pm
tagriffy wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:16 pm
The plates represent, as Bushman said, "a world where God is an active agent in human affairs."
I would think the seer stone did that. The plates were never needed.
Needed? I guess in some absolute sense no but they function as a witness to the people who were supposed to have written the story over thousand years ago from their people's records of marvelous events and demonstrations of God. I mean the words, by Gods power, appearing on that stone in the hat(version I was taught in seminary) was not just Joseph imagination, there were plates from the ancient people.

I suppose those plates would be a stronger witness if they were physically present but imagining them gets part of the way there.
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malkie
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Re: If plates then God

Post by malkie »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:03 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:01 pm
I would think the seer stone did that. The plates were never needed.
Needed? I guess in some absolute sense no but they function as a witness to the people who were supposed to have written the story over thousand years ago from their people's records of marvelous events and demonstrations of God. I mean the words, by Gods power, appearing on that stone in the hat(version I was taught in seminary) was not just Joseph imagination, there were plates from the ancient people.

I suppose those plates would be a stronger witness if they were physically present but imagining them gets part of the way there.
And realizing that you need to imagine them gets you a long way along the road to disbelief in the whole enterprise - in my opinion, if you are willing to do the thought experiment of imaging that they never existed, you're pretty much at the end of that road.
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huckelberry
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Re: If plates then God

Post by huckelberry »

malkie wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:13 am
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:03 am
Needed? I guess in some absolute sense no but they function as a witness to the people who were supposed to have written the story over thousand years ago from their people's records of marvelous events and demonstrations of God. I mean the words, by Gods power, appearing on that stone in the hat(version I was taught in seminary) was not just Joseph imagination, there were plates from the ancient people.

I suppose those plates would be a stronger witness if they were physically present but imagining them gets part of the way there.
And realizing that you need to imagine them gets you a long way along the road to disbelief in the whole enterprise - in my opinion, if you are willing to do the thought experiment of imaging that they never existed, you're pretty much at the end of that road.
malkie, I can imagine that the plates Joseph showed did not actually contain the Book of Mormon. Trying to imagine there were no plates at all is quite difficult for me. I can realize that there could be some sort of possiblity of that but I find that theory a strain and a big leap.
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Re: If plates then God

Post by tagriffy »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:01 pm
tagriffy wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:16 pm
The plates represent, as Bushman said, "a world where God is an active agent in human affairs."
I would think the seer stone did that. The plates were never needed.
For the translation, no. But mark what I'm saying: the plates are necessary for the mythos.

Think in terms of myths, legends, and folklore, and even real life. Great figures are often associated with iconic objects. Moses and the tablets. Aaron's rod. Arthur and Excalibur. Wizards and their wands. Christians often adorn their houses and bodies with crosses and crucifixes. European royalty wear crowns and carry scepters. In the final break from the Lamanites, Nephi takes the plates of brass, the Liahona, and the sword of Laban (2 Ne. 5:12-14). We could multiply examples practically forever.

So, we have gold plates--gold being a precious metal and has long served a symbol of something's value. The plates existence was revealed to Joseph by an angel. He had an initial problem obtaining the plates because he had pecuniary motive. He had further problems obtaining them because he wasn't accompanied by the right person. Once he did get the plates, other people tried to steal them, in turn requiring sometimes extraordinary measures and even supernatural intervention to keep them safe. The loss of the 116 manuscript pages led to the plates being taken away temporarily and the permanent loss of the Interpreters. Joseph then had to obtain divine forgiveness to get the plates back. Once the translation is done and the plates are shown to God's chosen witnesses, they were taken back and now they will remain forever safe. This is the stuff legends and myths are made of!

Compare to: "One day I put a stone in a hat and this is what I saw. End of story."

The plates--and especially the stories surrounding them--gives the Book of Mormon an intensified importance it might not otherwise have.
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malkie
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Re: If plates then God

Post by malkie »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:31 am
malkie wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:13 am

And realizing that you need to imagine them gets you a long way along the road to disbelief in the whole enterprise - in my opinion, if you are willing to do the thought experiment of imaging that they never existed, you're pretty much at the end of that road.
malkie, I can imagine that the plates Joseph showed did not actually contain the Book of Mormon. Trying to imagine there were no plates at all is quite difficult for me. I can realize that there could be some sort of possiblity of that but I find that theory a strain and a big leap.
No gain without pain?

But I agree, and think I overstated and/or misstated my case. There quite likely, in my opinion, were "plates" of some sort, but as a prop only.

So, if you'll excuse my sloppiness, and read "they"/"them" in my previous statement as referring to real physical plates that actually contained the writings of the Book of Mormon prophets, how does that fit?
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

tagriffy wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:55 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:01 pm
I would think the seer stone did that. The plates were never needed.
For the translation, no. But mark what I'm saying: the plates are necessary for the mythos.

Think in terms of myths, legends, and folklore, and even real life. Great figures are often associated with iconic objects. Moses and the tablets. Aaron's rod. Arthur and Excalibur. Wizards and their wands. Christians often adorn their houses and bodies with crosses and crucifixes. European royalty wear crowns and carry scepters. In the final break from the Lamanites, Nephi takes the plates of brass, the Liahona, and the sword of Laban (2 Ne. 5:12-14). We could multiply examples practically forever.

So, we have gold plates--gold being a precious metal and has long served a symbol of something's value. The plates existence was revealed to Joseph by an angel. He had an initial problem obtaining the plates because he had pecuniary motive. He had further problems obtaining them because he wasn't accompanied by the right person. Once he did get the plates, other people tried to steal them, in turn requiring sometimes extraordinary measures and even supernatural intervention to keep them safe. The loss of the 116 manuscript pages led to the plates being taken away temporarily and the permanent loss of the Interpreters. Joseph then had to obtain divine forgiveness to get the plates back. Once the translation is done and the plates are shown to God's chosen witnesses, they were taken back and now they will remain forever safe. This is the stuff legends and myths are made of!

Compare to: "One day I put a stone in a hat and this is what I saw. End of story."

The plates--and especially the stories surrounding them--gives the Book of Mormon an intensified importance it might not otherwise have.
Agreed. And, why the iStone is so devastating to Mormon truth claims.

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Re: If plates then God

Post by I Have Questions »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:01 pm
tagriffy wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:16 pm
The plates represent, as Bushman said, "a world where God is an active agent in human affairs."
I would think the seer stone did that. The plates were never needed.
The plates are supposed to be the "proof" that Joseph Smith wasn't making up (more) stories about where the native Americans came from. But you wouldn’t buy a car on the basis of a contract that you couldn’t see and only had the salespersons word about what was written on it, even if 11 of his colleagues claimed to have seen the contract and confirmed what he was saying. Unfortunately many Mormons in Utah would make a real world investment on that basis, hence why Utah is a global epicentre for affinity fraud.
1. Eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. 2. The best evidence for The Book of Mormon is eye witness testimony, therefore… 3.The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is a type of evidence that is notoriously unreliable.
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Plates-type God

Post by High Spy »

I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:06 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:01 pm
I would think the seer stone did that. The plates were never needed.
The plates are supposed to be the "proof" that Joseph Smith wasn't making up (more) stories about where the native Americans came from. But you wouldn’t buy a car on the basis of a contract that you couldn’t see and only had the salespersons word about what was written on it, even if 11 of his colleagues claimed to have seen the contract and confirmed what he was saying. Unfortunately many Mormons in Utah would make a real world investment on that basis, hence why Utah is a global epicentre for affinity fraud.
According to The Spirit, Sidney Rigdon originated a transcript that Oliver Cowdrey would peddle on his annual wagon route, that just so happened to coincide with the Angel Moroni’s supposed visits. No wonder the 5.7 SLC quake landed said fake instrument.
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Philo Sofee »

tagriffy wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:55 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:01 pm
I would think the seer stone did that. The plates were never needed.
For the translation, no. But mark what I'm saying: the plates are necessary for the mythos.

Think in terms of myths, legends, and folklore, and even real life. Great figures are often associated with iconic objects. Moses and the tablets. Aaron's rod. Arthur and Excalibur. Wizards and their wands. Christians often adorn their houses and bodies with crosses and crucifixes. European royalty wear crowns and carry scepters. In the final break from the Lamanites, Nephi takes the plates of brass, the Liahona, and the sword of Laban (2 Ne. 5:12-14). We could multiply examples practically forever.

So, we have gold plates--gold being a precious metal and has long served a symbol of something's value. The plates existence was revealed to Joseph by an angel. He had an initial problem obtaining the plates because he had pecuniary motive. He had further problems obtaining them because he wasn't accompanied by the right person. Once he did get the plates, other people tried to steal them, in turn requiring sometimes extraordinary measures and even supernatural intervention to keep them safe. The loss of the 116 manuscript pages led to the plates being taken away temporarily and the permanent loss of the Interpreters. Joseph then had to obtain divine forgiveness to get the plates back. Once the translation is done and the plates are shown to God's chosen witnesses, they were taken back and now they will remain forever safe. This is the stuff legends and myths are made of!

Compare to: "One day I put a stone in a hat and this is what I saw. End of story."

The plates--and especially the stories surrounding them--gives the Book of Mormon an intensified importance it might not otherwise have.
Yes, I see what you are getting at and agree.
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Boomer57
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Boomer57 »

Bushman also believes Middle Earth is a place...
' :idea: Give me truth and clarity, not fluff and charity'
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