BYP Hosts Dr. John Lundwall - The Book of Mormon is WHOLLY Anachronistic

[Moksha]

"So if you take Dr. Nibley's apologetic course you can opt out of the Book of Mormon requirement and the only text is the pamphlet No, Ma'am, That's Not History"

[Shulem]

And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

What is a "Bible" to Nephi? Isn't it just more Greek that crept into the Book of Mormon and a word that represents something to Nephi that never existed in his time? Nephi should not have said the word "Bible." But we see it's really Joseph Smith behind the 8 Ball taking another anachronistic cheap shot.

Smith was the author and inventor of the Book of Mormon. He was behind all of it.

[Kishkumen]

That was a lot of fun, Philo! Thanks for having Dr. Lundwall on your show. His position about the Book of Mormon being anachronistic is true, in my opinion, and I think I am generally persuaded that the culture of writing described in the Book of Mormon is also anachronistic, but I am not completely clear on what he means by a literate culture. I would say that the 6th century BC is close enough to a literate culture to produce books that are drawing on other books. The most convincing part of his presentation, to my mind, was when he pointed out the Lamanite literacy program in Mosiah. That was not only a howler of an anachronism, but it also runs directly contrary to the argument that there was a small scribal tradition that comprised the most literate aspect of Nephite civilization, and thus we should not expect to find a proliferation of ancient Nephite books.

Of course, my interests are different from Lundwall's, and so I want to understand Joseph Smith's mindset and what he set out to create. I am not sure that the Book of Mormon truly does represent a literate culture as Lundwall was arguing. Rather, it is a culture created to correspond to Joseph Smith's own production of the Book of Mormon as the revelator who dictates to a scribe. This "culture," which Smith has fabricated for his own reasons, partly seeks to remediate the problems of literate culture. In that way, it assumes the existence of a highly literate culture and then demotes it in favor of books produced by revelation, not in direct relation to other books. Only books produced by revelation can be counted on, and these books should never simply reproduce what can be drawn from literate culture. There must always be a seer or divine translator fixing the problems in "textual transmission."

Textual transmission is bad in that it squeezes revelation out of the picture and multiplies errors.

Revelatory transmission is good in that it re-injects revelation to fix the errors and reveal the truths hidden or left out.

If we go back to the Lamanite literacy program, it may be useful to explore the idea that this literacy culture among the Lamanites is emblematic of the problems. Is it a culture of literacy without prophetic intervention and thus one that will inevitably lead to problems/apostasy?

[Boomer57]

You were a great host, Philo! Lundwall knocked it out of the park. Now to get him to put this all in a well organized book....

[huckelberry]

Shulem this post seems pretty on target and with a bit of humor. Your second version (not copied) suggests you dropped some funky chemical and are having paranoid hallucinations.

Oh, I don't know about that. But just look at the faces of those Nephites who are supposed to be adoring the God of Israel! It's just awful. The expressions are really bad and Jesus's hair is really, really, bad. Or do you like it?

I mean, come on. Don't you agree?

Shulem, I can see what you see in those expressions. It is awkward. I started college in 1967, private college with no LDS connection. I am pretty tolerant of long hair.

[Shulem]

Shulem, I can see what you see in those expressions. It is awkward. I started college in 1967, private college with no LDS connection. I am pretty tolerant of long hair.

Huck, you're old, like a Timex watch that takes a licking and keeps on ticking. And you probably wear one, right?

But seriously, I'm tolerant of long hair too and had very long hair as a teenager growing up. But the imagery of what the Church is producing in that photo really turns me off. I think it's a bad production and this business of showing resurrected Jesus wearing a bleached out pleated robe in contrast with dark messy hair is not a good way to depict God. A dove bird might land on his head! For Christ's sake, he looks like he has bad breath! That's all I'm saying. Maybe they should give him a breath mint or a Tic Tac.

The Mormons are just weird.

[huckelberry]

Shulem, I can see what you see in those expressions. It is awkward. I started college in 1967, private college with no LDS connection. I am pretty tolerant of long hair.

Huck, you're old, like a Timex watch that takes a licking and keeps on ticking. And you probably wear one, right?

But seriously, I'm tolerant of long hair too and had very long hair as a teenager growing up. But the imagery of what the Church is producing in that photo really turns me off. I think it's a bad production and this business of showing resurrected Jesus wearing a bleached out pleated robe in contrast with dark messy hair is not a good way to depict God. A dove bird might land on his head! For Christ's sake, he looks like he has bad breath! That's all I'm saying. Maybe they should give him a breath mint or a Tic Tac.

The Mormons are just weird.

Not really but still a bit of old hippy. I do not ware any sort of watch. Have not for a long time. Due to growing old I have broken down and now carry a phone. It can tell me time. The idea of running around with a phone is weird. I have inclined to value being able to get away from the phones and watches.

Back to the awkward picture. desultory audience and strange white robe.

[Shulem]

For the most part I enjoyed the show, BUT, it went on too long. I'm afraid that so many of the podcasts out there in Podcast Land are too long. They should be kept within an hour limit, tops. Do a part II, III, or more if necessary but dragging a podcast on beyond 2 hours is a cardinal sin in my view. Does anyone else agree with me or am I just a weirdo freakazoid?

That's my opinion. That's just me. I'm sure others don't mind or enjoy long podcasts but it's more than I can bear in one sitting. I stuck it out last night but prefer a one hour limit. Dehlin and RFM do the same thing although RFM used to keep it shorter but gave into the temptation of dragging it on too long. The whole thing is nuts!

[Boomer57]

For the most part I enjoyed the show, BUT, it went on too long. I'm afraid that so many of the podcasts out there in Podcast Land are too long. They should be kept within an hour limit, tops. Do a part II, III, or more if necessary but dragging a podcast on beyond 2 hours is a cardinal sin in my view. Does anyone else agree with me or am I just a weirdo freakazoid?

That's my opinion. That's just me. I'm sure others don't mind or enjoy long podcasts but it's more than I can bear in one sitting. I stuck it out last night but prefer a one hour limit. Dehlin and RFM do the same thing although RFM used to keep it shorter but gave into the temptation of dragging it on too long. The whole thing is nuts!

I love long-format podcasts. So much information delivered, and no rush. I like that. I have listened to the Robert Ritner epic 13 hour series on Mormon Stories at least 3 times.

[Shulem]

I love long-format podcasts. So much information delivered, and no rush. I like that. I have listened to the Robert Ritner epic 13 hour series on Mormon Stories at least 3 times.

I think that's great. You like what you like as should we all.

The Ritner podcasts, although ridiculously long, were excellent and I make an exception to that because of my longtime deep interest in Egyptology and the Book of Abraham. But even those podcasts could have been shorter!

When inclined to listen to live podcasts I can listen to the first 1 hour and then sign out and come back later to catch the rest. I think that might be best for me in the future unless the content is keeping me focused and paying attention. I have serious attention deficient and get easily distracted unless its something of keen interest to me.