The 2024 Sampson Avard Golden Scepter Award

[Moksha]

Ideas don’t have to be factually correct in order to be influential. No one would deny the influence of Freud and Jung, but their work is not really applicable in modern psychology so much as in the broader culture.

The concept of a flat earth still has its adherents to this very day. It persisted for thousands of years. There might well be a hall of Nibley (or a holosuite) on the Spaceship Nauvoo on its voyage to Kolob.

[Kishkumen]

Yes, I have not claimed that Nibley was a straight scholar. He had an agenda. That said, he had a huge influence on LDS apologetics and more vision than any other LDS scholar of antiquity.

[drumdude]

Yes, I have not claimed that Nibley was a straight scholar. He had an agenda. That said, he had a huge influence on LDS apologetics and more vision than any other LDS scholar of antiquity.

Being the best Mormon apologist in academia is a little bit like being the best dancer on a football team.

[Markk]

Yes, Dean Robbers: your assessment takes precedence, as always. Scripture Central has absolutely bulldozed Interpreter off the map, by any measure. Take whatever metric you want, and Welch has been kicking DCP’s ass. When this has been pointed out to the Afore, his response has been, “But Welch has invited me to speak in his site!” lol! What a dope. He spent all that time thinking that Meldrum and Neville were his main competitors, and yet look at what has happened? I hope that Scripture Central finances a major theatrical film sometime soon, as that will be the nail in the coffin.

From my "position" as a Christian that still engages in Evangelical vs. Member debates, often, when I bring up a argument against a standard truth claim, FAIR Mormon has been the number 1 referenced source for the past decade or so, no doubt about that, but in the past few years Scripture Central is catching up and almost even. If I had to put it in order 1-10....It would be something like this. I suppose if I was not banned from MAD, th interpreter would be linked more my the internet crowd, but the chapel Mormons seldom use it.

What I also find interesting in faith discussions apart from truth claims....FAIR LDS still out links LDS.org. They quote from it but are hard pressed to link from there....they want you to think they know all things Mormon.

1. FAIR LDS
2. Scripture Central
3. LDS.org
4. Book of Mormon Evidences
5. Joseph Smith Foundation
6-9. you tube podcasters
10. the Interpreter.

When the Interpreter comes into play for things like a member trying to combat say the Book of Abraham, or the Stone in the hat, almost always the person ignorantly links a pre essay paper or article that is easily de-bunked by linking LDS.org and the essays. What is really interesting is that they often link defense's by Kerry Shirts and Brian Hauglid on topics that is linked from FAIR LDS or the Interpreter, without reading the footnotes.

[Doctor Scratch]

That’s very interesting, Markk, and it speaks yet again to Welch’s savvy and organizational skills. He has never really been in the limelight, and thus has managed to dodge much of the criticism that has been aimed at the likes of Hamelin, Gee, Midgley, etc. And yet he still commands respect. I noticed on SeN that Skousen apparently gave a “shout out” to both Welch and Interpreter for supporting his Book of Mormon project. That is pretty remarkable when you think about it: Interpreter gave literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to Skousen in support of his project, and yet what did Welch do? Merely exist? Give verbal approval?

[Markk]

That’s very interesting, Markk, and it speaks yet again to Welch’s savvy and organizational skills. He has never really been in the limelight, and thus has managed to dodge much of the criticism that has been aimed at the likes of Hamelin, Gee, Midgley, etc. And yet he still commands respect. I noticed on SeN that Skousen apparently gave a “shout out” to both Welch and Interpreter for supporting his Book of Mormon project. That is pretty remarkable when you think about it: Interpreter gave literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to Skousen in support of his project, and yet what did Welch do? Merely exist? Give verbal approval?

Certainly he appears to be the the man behind the curtain. But he has not really put his self out in the Interpreter. You can' be criticized much, if you don't say much.

I just went and did a search and since 2012 and the first volume, Welch has contributed only (2) articles. DCP has over (60), Sweet Lou over (20), Gee (20), Hamblin surprising, only (4).

LoL.... after I just read that Hamblin only had (4) papers in the Journal, that kind of blew my theory above to moon dust. But, we all know that Bill put himself out on the old boards and we would all go round and round with him so I guess it is more about interactions, character, and demeanor. Apart from our many religious, or non "religious" differences Welch appears to be a wise man.

When I was looking at the authors of past papers on the Journal, Ben McGuire jumped out at me. Back on the old boards, when there might be a hot and heated thread, Ben would sometimes chime in, to me, and he made gentle points that made me think, I probably disagreed with him, but he did not take it personal and had a reserved tone, and certainly did not cryptically call me a clansman or tell me I left the church because of the beer, or call me Lucifers pawn...etc, and my personal favorite a urine bag. I truly enjoyed the conversations with Ben.

It appears with Welch, like Ben, that he is reserved by nature, yet highly organized (as you noted) and super calculated in his authorship leaving room for compromise and kind of a approach that Mormonism is just misunderstood as opposed to the only way and nothing about it is wrong, as those you mentioned champion. As an example from his first paper.

"I have come to appreciate that, as Latter-day Saints, we, of all people, don’t need to choose theologically between Gethsemane or Golgotha. We don’t need to opt between Jesus’s bleeding from every pore, or his bleeding from the wounds in his hands, feet, and side. I like to think of it this way: Jesus overcame spiritual death in the darkness of Gethsemane, while he vanquished physical death in broad daylight on the cross. Both, working together, were necessary."

From his second paper...

"In this article, I hope to make a pioneering contribution to the intellectual progress of my own religious tradition, Mormonism. Recent political events have amplified the fact that to many Americans, Mormonism is still seen today as a bizarre religion, or worse, a “cult with a heretical understanding [Page 52]of Scripture and doctrine.”1 This article does not seek to answer such criticisms2 or to explain Mormon tenets,3 as is readily available elsewhere. Instead, this article explores a broad jurisprudential perspective of the relatively young religion that is very rich in potential and now emerging more often on national and international scenes. This article raises the following questions: What would a Mormon jurisprudence look like? How would one recognize a Mormon jurisprudence? What would distinguish it from other jurisprudential approaches? My comments will necessarily be brief and introductory. I will strive to say something without saying too little or too much. [Page 53]Much remains to be said and done along this line of inquiry, though a start has been made.4"

[Doctor Scratch]

I think “appears” may be the operative term here. I cannot remember which podcast it was, but I remember indelibly that Will Bagley described an encounter with Welch where Welch was, in Bagley’s words “extremely belligerent.” I would be willing to bet that the “behind the scenes” version of Welch is very different from the public face that he presents—not unlike the way that the LDS Church itself has always been. Meanwhile, DCP is *desperate*—more desperate than I can ever recall seeing him—to show that he and Welch are on good terms. He even implied in one comment that he was losing sleep over the idea that Welch thought ill of him. Wow. How much power does this guy have, exactly?

[Markk]

I think “appears” may be the operative term here. I cannot remember which podcast it was, but I remember indelibly that Will Bagley described an encounter with Welch where Welch was, in Bagley’s words “extremely belligerent.” I would be willing to bet that the “behind the scenes” version of Welch is very different from the public face that he presents—not unlike the way that the LDS Church itself has always been. Meanwhile, DCP is *desperate*—more desperate than I can ever recall seeing him—to show that he and Welch are on good terms. He even implied in one comment that he was losing sleep over the idea that Welch thought ill of him. Wow. How much power does this guy have, exactly?

Is he a closet Nibley, Sorenson, or Gee? So wrapped up in, and invested in trying to make it all true and relative? Does it control who he is? Does that make sense it is hard to put into words what you are describing.

If DCP is losing sleep how Welch feels about him, then that is huge, given that he has no credibility any longer that I know of, other that the credibility he creates for himself, meaning, Welch ain't buying it.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

John Welch is not a fan of DCP. One of John's motivating factors in creating Scripture Central was his deep concern with the Interpreter Foundation. The ridiculous, and ultimately harmful, articles and the attacking of other LDS organizations like FIRM, etc.

In a very short time, Scripture Central has become the only game in town that matters in terms of resources and reputation. It will be interesting to see if DCP will learn from Welch's organizational and leadership skills, or if the Interpreter completely fades into obscurity.

[Markk]

John Welch is not a fan of DCP. One of John's motivating factors in creating Scripture Central was his deep concern with the Interpreter Foundation. The ridiculous, and ultimately harmful, articles and the attacking of other LDS organizations like FIRM, etc.

In a very short time, Scripture Central has become the only game in town that matters in terms of resources and reputation. It will be interesting to see if DCP will learn from Welch's organizational and leadership skills, or if the Interpreter completely fades into obscurity.

Rodney Meldrum and Hanna Stoddard, and even Neville, are huge with chapel Mormon's. They dumb it down and tell members what they want and need to hear without them having to think. They may have more impact with saints that the Interpreter and Scripture Central put together in many ways. But I believe SC is the future for sure as the old guard dies off.