Should the Dehlin/Rosebud drama be deleted?

[Philo Sofee]

Shades. Put yourself in Dehlin's place. If Rosebud was doing this to you, using your in real life name (which most of us can connect to your screen name here and elsewhere), making the same unsupported, escalating, serious, and salacious claims about you...you'd have her out of here so fast there wouldn't even be enough time for her head to spin.

You know it. I know it. All the birdies in the trees know it. Anyone with history and long memory here knows it.

Z trolls. Only here you can make a decision where you (and I for that matter) cannot be banned and have the power to protect another guy from ongoing harassment and libel against himself and his family. Possibly his livelihood as well. Release her to find another playground or seek help.

I don't know much about Jen Kamp. Seems to me that Rosebud absorbed her to fit into her own scenario. Whatever. It's sick and also sickening. I think it's dangerous to keep her visible. Shove the Mega into the Mod Forum and be done with it.

All this board is doing is feeding her delusions. It's borderline risky on multiple levels for this board to give voice to it.

Just for the record. I have exactly NO skin in this game. I'm not a follower of Dehlin (seen some of his podcasts) and she's been on my foes list (read some of her posts here and there) for well over a year by now.

This appears entirely rational to me. I 2nd Jersey Girl's idea here.

[Fifth Columnist]

I think you should ask JD and do what he says. Maybe he wants a repository of this lunacy so he can point to when Rosebud makes more allegations. This is a good way to educate people who stumble on this information for the first time. On the other hand, maybe he doesn't want it. If I were in his shoes, I'm not sure what I would prefer. However, I would want more say in the decision than just one vote that has equal weight with everyone else's.

Even if JD wants it to remain, I do agree that it should be relegated to Outer Darkness or Telestial where people rarely go.

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

I voted no. They're both public figures. JD apparently has enough lawyers that he could have taken legal action against this board by now if it were possible to do so. I don't believe it is.

As much as I have tended to come down on the side that JD and Rosebud's relationship was mutual, not sexual harassment, I think it's creepy the way the rest of the Ex-Mormon Internet immediately leaps to Dehlin's defense over the smallest and fairest of criticisms. It quickly becomes obvious how many people are leaving the church and turning Dehlin into their new prophet, all the while denying that's exactly what they've done. They will entertain absolutely no criticism of him whatsoever, no matter how mild or well-intended. The lack of self-awareness is staggering. We must not speak ill of the ex-Lord's ex-anointed!

This is the only tiny corner of the ex-Mormon Internet where criticism of Dehlin has not been de facto banned and where Dehlin is treated evenhandedly.

There's always a third option: Shades can remove specific posts on a case-by-case basis. Claiming Dehlin is in cahoots with child molesters is over-the-top, so remove it. A single post can be excised without shutting down the entire conversation. If Rosebud is correct that Dehlin stated under oath that he "doesn't remember" their affair....well c'mon, folks, then he's just bald-faced lying, and it wouldn't be the first instance of Dehlin's dishonesty that's surfaced on this board. Because this board is the only place that isn't overrun by his stans.

It's possible (even probable) that Dehlin isn't trying to wield that level of influence over his audience, but we're all products of our culture. Any honest examination of the ex-Mormon Internet makes it pretty undeniable that hundreds of people are giving him that level of influence. His followers refuse to tolerate a single negative word about him to a degree that parallels Mormon adoration of the prophet. There should be one place where it's possible to criticize him without being immediately and overwhelmingly shouted down.

[Jersey Girl]

I think you should ask JD and do what he says. Maybe he wants a repository of this lunacy so he can point to when Rosebud makes more allegations. This is a good way to educate people who stumble on this information for the first time. On the other hand, maybe he doesn't want it. If I were in his shoes, I'm not sure what I would prefer. However, I would want more say in the decision than just one vote that has equal weight with everyone else's.

Even if JD wants it to remain, I do agree that it should be relegated to Outer Darkness or Telestial where people rarely go.

Makes more allegations? You mean on this board? Hell, the chick's all over the internet with this stuff.

[Jersey Girl]

Shades. Put yourself in Dehlin's place. If Rosebud was doing this to you, using your in real life name (which most of us can connect to your screen name here and elsewhere), making the same unsupported, escalating, serious, and salacious claims about you...you'd have her out of here so fast there wouldn't even be enough time for her head to spin.

You know it. I know it. All the birdies in the trees know it. Anyone with history and long memory here knows it.

Z trolls. Only here you can make a decision where you (and I for that matter) cannot be banned and have the power to protect another guy from ongoing harassment and libel against himself and his family. Possibly his livelihood as well. Release her to find another playground or seek help.

I don't know much about Jen Kamp. Seems to me that Rosebud absorbed her to fit into her own scenario. Whatever. It's sick and also sickening. I think it's dangerous to keep her visible. Shove the Mega into the Mod Forum and be done with it.

All this board is doing is feeding her delusions. It's borderline risky on multiple levels for this board to give voice to it.

Just for the record. I have exactly NO skin in this game. I'm not a follower of Dehlin (seen some of his podcasts) and she's been on my foes list (read some of her posts here and there) for well over a year by now.

This appears entirely rational to me. I 2nd Jersey Girl's idea here.

Cripes! If nothing else, get it off the main drag, and shove it over to Telestial where the personal attack fests belong. That's all the Mega is. She's attacking Dehlin and folks are attacking her. It's a feeding frenzy. Ms. Succubus Incarnate comes in, hovers over the forum like the dark and disturbed cloud she is, drops her nonsense, and posters respond with a truckload of abuse. It's absolute madness.

[Rosebud]

I am not sure what the right answer is either, to be honest. Things are ramping up in the courtrooms.

Before I get into what I think are the current pros and cons, I do think it is worth reiterating that leaders of both Mormonism and exMormonism are suppressing this information, and that it ought to be available to the public. This is definitely not about a poster here and the rules about posters therefore aren’t applicable. Every time I read that argument I roll my eyes and wonder about the critical thinking capabilities of the person making it.

Dehlin and church leaders like Nelson are public figures and I am using freedom of speech to get out valuable information.

Also, this is the business of the donors to the Open Stories Foundation. I have been hesitant to offer an actual number because I haven’t taken the time to actually get the bankruptcy documents and look for myself, but Kamp has verbally told me that Dehlin is claiming he spent upwards of $1.3 Million in donor money in his case against her and that this is all recorded in the Washington State bankruptcy court. Again, this should be on in the public bankruptcy records (not covered by Judge Faust’s order) and should be verified. Those documents should be released to the public.

As far as pros and cons, one of the current issues is that this is heating up (not Dehlin, the bigger associated issues concerning Utah and the church.) There are current cases and as the cases proceed, this has the potential to ramp up even more.

And that, admittedly, is sticky.

That said, discussion of actual court cases is a public matter.

For the record, I think why this board has been pretty safe from Dehlin’s legal retaliations (remember, he sued Kamp and 10 other Does) is because it’s not in his best interests to sue me. To go after you for what I post here would be to go after me and to go after me would be to take further action to expose himself.

But, the very fact that we’re having this discussion indicates risk.

And at the end of the day, mitigating risk is an important consideration.

I think the fact that right now 1/3 of the people willing to make a public vote in support of the record is pretty amazing. Any public vote of support of me here is rare. For every person who publicly dares post in my favor, there are likely many others who don’t want this information further suppressed.

But risk is risk. I don’t know, Shades, but I know I’m not the only one who wants this information out.

[Moksha]

Graphics help to make the issue more understandable.

This board has been protecting the ongoing and obsessive harassment of another poster, public figure or otherwise, under the principle of free speech. I don't think this board should stand as a public forum in which a person should be permitted to live out their delusions. It's not healthy for the poster. It's not healthy for the board. It's toxic and possibly dangerous to either or both parties because the groundwork has been laid on this board for potential triggering.

[Jersey Girl]

I am not sure what the right answer is either, to be honest. Things are ramping up in the courtrooms.

Sure they are.

[Kishkumen]

I voted no. They're both public figures. JD apparently has enough lawyers that he could have taken legal action against this board by now if it were possible to do so. I don't believe it is.

As much as I have tended to come down on the side that JD and Rosebud's relationship was mutual, not sexual harassment, I think it's creepy the way the rest of the Ex-Mormon Internet immediately leaps to Dehlin's defense over the smallest and fairest of criticisms. It quickly becomes obvious how many people are leaving the church and turning Dehlin into their new prophet, all the while denying that's exactly what they've done. They will entertain absolutely no criticism of him whatsoever, no matter how mild or well-intended. The lack of self-awareness is staggering. We must not speak ill of the ex-Lord's ex-anointed!

This is the only tiny corner of the ex-Mormon Internet where criticism of Dehlin has not been de facto banned and where Dehlin is treated evenhandedly.

There's always a third option: Shades can remove specific posts on a case-by-case basis. Claiming Dehlin is in cahoots with child molesters is over-the-top, so remove it. A single post can be excised without shutting down the entire conversation. If Rosebud is correct that Dehlin stated under oath that he "doesn't remember" their affair....well c'mon, folks, then he's just bald-faced lying, and it wouldn't be the first instance of Dehlin's dishonesty that's surfaced on this board. Because this board is the only place that isn't overrun by his stans.

It's possible (even probable) that Dehlin isn't trying to wield that level of influence over his audience, but we're all products of our culture. Any honest examination of the ex-Mormon Internet makes it pretty undeniable that hundreds of people are giving him that level of influence. His followers refuse to tolerate a single negative word about him to a degree that parallels Mormon adoration of the prophet. There should be one place where it's possible to criticize him without being immediately and overwhelmingly shouted down.

I like the suggestions above.

Also, I don't understand why it is that Shades seems to tolerant of so many kinds of things until he suddenly isn't, like the case of his recent accusation that a new poster was nothing but an A.I. spammer or some such. I knew it wasn't true, and I think I know who it is, but Shades comes down hard on this person. Now suddenly, after years of allowing Rosebud to post here, we are seeing a campaign to vote her off the island?

WTF, man. She may have her obsessions, but, good grief, it is a little late to decide that we need to intervene by curtailing her right to post here or getting rid of the MegaThread. I get it, Res Ipsa is gone from his moderator post, and now we see a sea change in moderation with more arbitrary heavy-handedness.

[Rosebud]

I didn’t say Dehlin was in “cahoots” with child abusers. I use language carefully. I don’t have any idea what or who he is and isn’t in cahoots with.

I said that the timing of his podcasts discrediting organized child sexual abuse in the Mormon church aligned very will with the organized child sex abuse lawsuit filed against Nelson’s daughter, Brenda Miles, and that named Nelson as a possible future defendant for helping cover it up. This is the same lawsuit that Nelson likely started that whole “social media fast” about when it was hitting the media. I gave information about the dates of Dehlin’s podcasts and the legal filings, including the associated case (Mitchell vs. Robert’s) that ended the Utah legislature’s extension of the statute of limitations for CSA, effectively dismissing the Nelson case.

And I provided documents and put it in my chronology.

This is public information. I don’t like being accused of being irresponsible when I haven’t been.

What is irresponsible is contributing to the suppression of important information.

And I also stated that Kamp told me that Dehlin told her that he has an agreement with an “entity” to not allow victims of organized sexual abuse onto the podcast. Do I know that Dehlin actually told Kamp that? No. I am not an eye witness. So I state my witnesses accurately and allow others to make their own determinations.

And by the way, has Dehlin ever had a victim of organized child sexual abuse on his podcast? No. It all aligns.

I believe Kamp. That doesn’t mean a reader needs to.

And none of this is also saying that Dehlin is in “cahoots” with child abusers.

I don’t have that information.