anti-christ discussion, from middle p. 3 to end.

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Philo Sofee
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by Philo Sofee »

At least you're open about the fact that, in your rigidly dogmatic opinion, those who disagree with you are unworthy of serious attention because they're wrong and incompetent. And you know that they're wrong and incompetent because they disagree with you.
This is a strawman on Peterson's part. It isn't about Gemli being dogmatic, it is about religion ganging up on those who ask for EVIDENCE of claims (something entirely reasonable to ask for) and the religionists don't present it that they are doubted, not because they are incompetent. Surely Peterson can actually comprehend what he reads can't he? This is a logical fallacy of strawman. Peterson is not arguing Gemli's point. Even a mere wanna be logician as myself can spot this ridiculous mistake only sophomores in high school are capable of making because they have no logical courses under their belts yet. :roll:
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Physics Guy
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by Physics Guy »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:25 pm
The hill that DCP repeatedly insists on dying upon is this whole idea that you can be both smart/well-educated *and* you can still believe in Mormonism. So much of his life and his Mopologetics have been devoted to trying to advance that argument, and I can only guess at the depths of insecurity that are behind that particular obsession. You have to laugh, though: I mean, they are basically in a pissing match over whether William Lane Craig is smarter than Christopher Hitchens, which is the sort of argument you would expect the Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons to make.
An interesting point, because in one way it seems that this can only be the right hill for any religious believers. You don't need to insist that non-believers can only be fools, but you don't want to accept that all believers have to be fools, either. Given that believing professors exist, you can hardly blame them for persistently claiming that they have a right to exist.

Yet you're right that listing an all-star team of smart believers is ludicrous. It does seem insecure. So something's somehow gone funny.

I don't think it can just be that Peterson is stuck defending the general respectability of religious belief, because there's no need to get insecure or silly over that. It's not a high bar to clear, especially in the academic world, where anybody is entitled to believe what they want as long as they're not hurting anybody else over it.

Maybe the problem is that Peterson wants more respect for his particular Mormon beliefs than most educated people are willing to give. He's not content with being tolerated as a harmless eccentric. He wants more than that.

I think you could get more respect for some form of Mormonism if you disavowed the historicity of the Mormon scriptures and the authority of the Mormon hierarchy, but insisted that Mormonism had some interesting and original ideas. I think Kishkumen here does that, for instance. I'm not necessarily convinced but I'm certainly not appalled that any scholar would think that. It's a respectable view, in my view.

It's got to be tough to get more than eyebrow-raised tolerance, though, if you're really upholding the whole LDS deal. Maybe the bottom line is that to believe all of that you really do have to be some kind of fool, even if you're not stupid, and insisting you're not a fool just makes the foolishness obvious.
Fredo Corleone wrote:I’m smart. Not like everybody says, like dumb. I’m smart and I want respect!
I was a teenager before it was cool.
dastardly stem
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by dastardly stem »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:25 pm
I mean, they are basically in a pissing match over whether William Lane Craig is smarter than Christopher Hitchens, which is the sort of argument you would expect the Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons to make.
Yup.

Gemli is correct, I'd say, to point out that Craig's accomplishments or learning is not at issue. The problem we have here is from what I've seen his arguments have been beaten, his tactics have been exposed. He could be the smartest ever but if his arguments fail and he maintains them, which is what is happening in real time right now, then who cares if he's smart?

Hitchens was gifted. he could debate anyone and come out looking great, it seems. But its not as if he presented perfectly unassailable arguments all the time. Sometimes it appears he flubbed, punted and left with sophistry.

God, I kind of hate them for getting this dummy commenting on the merits of these two intellectual giants. I would say Gemli has a better grasp on reality than Peterson but how would we really compare their smarts? Its a game of relativity that doesn't matter. Peterson can present his arguments, if he has any to present, and we can all watch him fail. Some might say he's dumb, I'd just say he holds to bad positions.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
mentalgymnast
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by mentalgymnast »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:25 pm

I think you could get more respect for some form of Mormonism if you disavowed the historicity of the Mormon scriptures and the authority of the Mormon hierarchy, but insisted that Mormonism had some interesting and original ideas. I think Kishkumen here does that, for instance. I'm not necessarily convinced but I'm certainly not appalled that any scholar would think that. It's a respectable view, in my view.

It's got to be tough to get more than eyebrow-raised tolerance, though, if you're really upholding the whole LDS deal. Maybe the bottom line is that to believe all of that you really do have to be some kind of fool, even if you're not stupid, and insisting you're not a fool just makes the foolishness obvious.
Angels and gold plates. You’ve got to be kidding, right?

I read the bulk of conversation referenced in this thread. Gemli comes right out of the Book of Mormon Antichrist pages.

Regards,
MG
dastardly stem
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by dastardly stem »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:38 pm

Angels and gold plates. You’ve got to be kidding, right?

I read the bulk of conversation referenced in this thread. Gemli comes right out of the Book of Mormon Antichrist pages.

Regards,
MG
It may be interesting to read the anti-Christ pages again and then determine who in Joseph Smith" world fit that type of description. Are we talking Korihor, Nehor, umm...who else?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Lem
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by Lem »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:43 pm
Angels and gold plates. You’ve got to be kidding, right?

I read the bulk of conversation referenced in this thread. Gemli comes right out of the Book of Mormon Antichrist pages.
It may be interesting to read the anti-Christ pages again and then determine who in Joseph Smith" world fit that type of description. Are we talking Korihor, Nehor, umm...who else?
:lol:

I must admit, I never heard sections of the Book of Mormon referred to as "Anti-Christ," but maybe my seminary teacher wasn't progressive enough. At BYU I opted for the one World Religions class instead of a gigantic Mormon studies class held in an auditorium. The seven of us (6 return missionaries and myself) learned about Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Interestingly enough, neither "anti-Christ" nor "anti-Mormonism" made the main list of major sects. I'm guessing gemli isn't all that aware of the terms either.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by Doctor Steuss »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:38 pm
I read the bulk of conversation referenced in this thread. Gemli comes right out of the Book of Mormon Antichrist pages.

Regards,
MG
Hopefully he'll be arrested soon for his blasphemy by the theocratic authorities. No doubt he's already been rendered deaf and dumb but just hasn't lost the use of his typing fingers. I wonder if when the devil appeared to him as an angel, and told him to write his comments, the devil also offered free Wi-Fi.

Blessed be the lessons of the Book of Mormon when we can liken them unto ourselves.
Philo Sofee
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by Philo Sofee »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:26 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:38 pm
I read the bulk of conversation referenced in this thread. Gemli comes right out of the Book of Mormon Antichrist pages.

Regards,
MG
Hopefully he'll be arrested soon for his blasphemy by the theocratic authorities. No doubt he's already been rendered deaf and dumb but just hasn't lost the use of his typing fingers. I wonder if when the devil appeared to him as an angel, and told him to write his comments, the devil also offered free Wi-Fi.

Blessed be the lessons of the Book of Mormon when we can liken them unto ourselves.
Spot loving on....... very well put!
mentalgymnast
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by mentalgymnast »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:43 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:38 pm

Angels and gold plates. You’ve got to be kidding, right?

I read the bulk of conversation referenced in this thread. Gemli comes right out of the Book of Mormon Antichrist pages.

Regards,
MG
It may be interesting to read the anti-Christ pages again and then determine who in Joseph Smith" world fit that type of description. Are we talking Korihor, Nehor, umm...who else?
Sherem.

https://www.latterdaylight.com/study-A.I. ... -of-Mormon

Regards,
MG
mentalgymnast
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Re: gemli's gems: STILL the best reason to read a patheos blog

Post by mentalgymnast »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:26 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:38 pm
I read the bulk of conversation referenced in this thread. Gemli comes right out of the Book of Mormon Antichrist pages.

Regards,
MG
Hopefully he'll be arrested soon for his blasphemy by the theocratic authorities. No doubt he's already been rendered deaf and dumb but just hasn't lost the use of his typing fingers. I wonder if when the devil appeared to him as an angel, and told him to write his comments, the devil also offered free Wi-Fi.

Blessed be the lessons of the Book of Mormon when we can liken them unto ourselves.
As I read gemli’s comments I couldn’t help but notice the similarities between his basic arguments and those of the antichrists in the Book of Mormon.

Not to say that gemli may be a nice person and all, but he does come across as an antichrist.

Regards,
MG
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