David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Moksha »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 2:50 pm
I don’t think there is much David couldn’t pop with those massive arms. Good Lord!
This is probably due to a weightlifting regimen and perfecting the art of barbecuing pork butt. Certainly, the last part was not picked up at Brandeis.

BYU really blew it big time by not hiring Dr. Bokovoy as a full-time professor.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Moksha wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:26 am
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 2:50 pm
I don’t think there is much David couldn’t pop with those massive arms. Good Lord!
This is probably due to a weightlifting regimen and perfecting the art of barbecuing pork butt. Certainly, the last part was not picked up at Brandeis.

BYU really blew it big time by not hiring Dr. Bokovoy as a full-time professor.
Moksha, if I can grow THAT much muscle by simply following the pork butt diet, then sign me up right now.

Yes, BYU really blew it. David is a scholar of the highest caliber.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Dr Moore »

As a co-founder of the Interpreter, Bokovoy should be invited to a virtual head-to-head on the DH with Thompson. It should be easy enough to organize, and would affirm the weaker half of the journal's "Faith and Scholarship" tag line.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Benjamin McGuire »

Symmachus wrote:
#1 is a safer bet, and I would suggest that until traditional believers get serious about scholarship and building a real tradition of their own that can be taken seriously, they stay with #1. In fact, they already do! Because here is the thing that makes all of this discussion, both the paper and responses, pointless: the New Testament. Whatever the Brass Plates contained, Alma contains quotations from the Gospel of Matthew before Jesus was even born, and most bizarrely contains whole phrases from Paul a good century before he wrote any of his letters, as well as perhaps Revelation (e.g. have a look at Alma 5). If we are going to start tackling textual anachronisms, let's start with that. If you can't explain that, then no amount of parsing any "E" or whatever sources is going to matter one damn bit.
There is a lot to say about this paragraph. So first the obvious (especially since it was discussed by others in this thread). It is difficult to have certain discussions about the Book of Mormon because of the conflation that occurs between the Book of Mormon and the Gold Plates. The text of the Book of Mormon does not come "a good century before [Paul] wrote any of his letters". The Book of Mormon is a 19th century production, it is written in a language Paul could not understand. When we discuss the textual history and reliability of the New Testament, no one starts with a Coptic text and claims that it represents exactly what Paul wrote. It becomes a question of when the text was translated, and what the state of the manuscript was that was used for that translation, and so on. Exactly what we mean when we speak of the Book of Mormon as a translation is an important question. A few year back, I started a bit of a dialogue about it: https://www.academia.edu/48984482/The_B ... in_Context. There is, as I noted in that presentation, a tendency for LDS to adopt this conflation - and to do so by attempting to apply the tools of biblical scholarship directly to the Book of Mormon as if it were the ancient text just like the Hebrew Bible (speaking of its ancient manuscripts). This effort will always yield problematic results. This is no less true of Symmachus in the quote above, who wants to assert the existence of anachronisms in a translation - but that assertion comes with a host of assumptions about the text of the Book of Mormon and the nature of its translation. I don't have any issue with people bringing assumptions to the table - as long as those assumptions are clearly spelled out. To extend the rationale of Symmachus, The Book of Mormon quotes extensively from the King James Version, right? Alma quotes from the KJV a millennia and a half before it is written (translated).

Don't get me wrong. The challenge with the essay that is being critiqued is that it too doesn't try to explain what we see in any systematic or methodological fashion. Consider this:
First, in several places in the Book of Mormon the reference is to “the books of Moses” rather than to “the five books of Moses,” and even where there is now reference to “the five” books of Moses, he suggests that Joseph Smith may have added the number “five” because he felt he independently knew there were five books of Moses, and he was justified in being more specific. Second, he notes that the version of the Ten Commandments which Abinadi quoted to the priests of King Noah varies a little from our King James version in Exodus 20. We ought not be surprised, since there is variation between the version of the Ten Commandments familiar to modern-day Protestants and Catholics. Barney’s point is that there may have been separate E (Brass Plates?), P (Exodus 20), and D (Deuteronomy 5) versions of the Ten Commandments, and we do not know which version Abinadi memorized, presumably with the Brass Plates as his source.
So, the question I would ask is this, why doesn't the rationale behind the first example also work for the second? Couldn't we argue that the version of the Ten Commandments occurs in the way it does precisely because it was a version that Joseph Smith was familiar with? (Again, I discuss ways of talking about these issues in the presentation I linked earlier). This essay isn't particularly useful to me because it doesn't actually answer its own questions.

There are more statements that I find highly problematic in this context. Consider this: "Nicholas Frederick identifies additional possibilities when he suggests the term “biblical interaction” rather than mere “allusion” to explain intertextuality in the Book of Mormon." Frederick understands what I set out to explain in my first published piece - that intertextuality can be a deliberate and interactive process between two texts (or traditions) or it can be something incidental. I am not sure that Thompson really understands why this difference is important, and why the distinction between the gold plates (ancient source) and Book of Mormon (modern English text) is important. But as Frederick points out in his conclusion:
The final step, proper analysis, can realistically be performed only once the first two steps have been fully explored. Once we have ascertained where the precise and probable biblical interactions exist within the Book of Mormon and we can set aside those phrases that are simply the result of a shared vocabulary, we can begin to look more closely at why biblical phrases constitute such an apparent, yet so very intrinsic, part of the text. Are they the merely the result of a nineteenth-century translation? Are they more easily explained as author-oriented or audience-oriented?
Of course, I might question the idea of being 'merely the result of a nineteenth-century translation' only in that such a statement contains embedded assumptions about what a translation is. Should we consider translators to be authors in their own right?

Back to Symmachus:
I think #2 is incoherent: "believers" in X can't "shift their belief paradigms" in X without changing what X means: they won't still be "believers." We have to acknowledge that this comes at a serious cost. But If they are serious about maintaining belief in X, then they need to make a better theory than the Documentary Hypothesis. Mormon apologetics is responsive and negative (that is, it denies the claims of others but doesn't advance its own claims), not assertive and positive (that is, positing a claim). That is unlike traditional Christian, Jewish, and Islamic apologetics for most of the history of those traditions. Mormon apologists have such a long way to go because they have yet to develop the competency even to understand what they are up against, let alone how to overcome it. That is what David Bokovoy is showing here.
I think that this is much more likely than you do. My answer is based on my experience working with the Joseph Smith papers. It's been a while since I have spent a lot of time reading there, but, one thing became very clear to me early on. Several of the sections in the D&C were constructed from earlier sources and ideas. A good example is Section 27. The whole thing about the sticks from Ezekiel first shows up in the 1835 version (it isn't a part of the original revelation) following an article that William Phelps wrote in which he merges several ideas from Jahn's Biblical Archaeology with details about the Gold Plates and the Book of Mormon. These are tacked on to the August, 1830 revelation and there we have Section 27. If there is any doubt about the kinds of editorial changes, scribal insertions, issues related to copying, and the like, that are discussed in textual criticism of the Bible, we don't have to go very far in early Mormonism to find them playing out in real time (and very well documented). When we discuss the different versions of the ten commandments, what about the different versions of the Articles of Faith. Mormonism will, eventually, confront its own text critical discoveries (and they won't be as speculative as the ones made about Biblical texts). I think that this shift, while taking some time, is inevitable (to the extent that believers are interested in these discussions). And so I believe that accepting the reality of these kinds of literary theories will become much more natural and an accepted part of belief at some point.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Symmachus »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 5:11 pm
I can think of one very general counterexample. the LGT. Maybe this is why I considered it the reigning paradigm of old-school Mopologetics. I believe I had discovered the theory died abruptly in 2011, but I can't check the old board. I wish I'd had your insight back then, because I think why the LGT stuck out so radically is because it just might be the ONLY example of an actual theory. e.g., a positively asserted framework or model of some kind from the apologists. But participation in the theory was scant over the decades it reigned supreme, and it was never something you could say, take a class on at the BYU. A certain blog owner had said that there wasn't much to do for the LGT but assert it. After that, the work had been done. I thought that was an insane observation.
That is a good example, and I note that the only monographs in apologetics besides Nibley have come from that direction: Sorenson and his two books on the topic, Brian Stubbs, and of course there is Brant Gardner's commentaries. In that sense it has been the most fruitful thing they have done, but I think it still fell short for the reason you have in the last sentences here: assertion is treated as sufficient refutation, but then of course what makes apologetics successful is when everyone else has to respond and adjust their position. That's how apologetics should work, but almost all Mormon apologetics is ignored or, if there is a response, it is rooted in some kind of personal issue (e.g. Ritner's response isn't about the strength of Gee's arguments but about Gee's misuse of Egyptology and association with the field, which offends Ritner who sees himself as a kind of guardian of Egyptology, perhaps rightly).

An example: Nibley's summation of his work with patristics that he published in Church History in 1961. He openly questioned the survival of an ancient church, which was a serious indictment of the whole field; the reasons why were obvious, but the evidence he brought to bear and the mode of argumentation was hard to refute. The Protestant Hans Hillerbrand at Duke (he's still alive) wrote an anxiety-ridden reply, and then the eminent ecclesiastical historian Robert Grant (University of Chicago) wrote a response to both, acknowledging the strength of Nibley's argument but exposing some of its limitations. Nibley left patristics behind not long after this and moved into pamphleteering again (collected in Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass) and then Egyptology. But the ironic thing is that Nibley was largely if not entirely ahead of his time with that argument and if had pursued it, he could have become a dissenting force within New Testament studies and Early Christianity to be reckoned with: he could have had actual influence on the field because of his apologetic bent. So, in other words, his Mormon apologetics could have had an impact on the wider world of scholarship, but instead he opted for the insularity provided by the Improvement Era, and his followers have plumbed depths of self-publishing obscurity that even he didn't pursue.

I would be more inclined to see the Early Modern English as a serious idea if its proponents thought their work was serious enough to argue for in the real world. The most I have seen in that direction was Skousen's introduction in the Yale edition Book of Mormon, where he just listed some Early Modern English examples—the same small set of examples he recycles over and over—as curiosities. Has he developed any relevant theories to explain them beyond "how could Joseph have known?" No. Has it lead to novel arguments that might advance our understanding of language survival, archaism, English dialectology, or methodology that would then motivate a counter response or at least some grudging respect for the Mormon position on this? No. It is therefore of no interest to anyone, and apologetics of this kind will have no value then to anyone but to its own insular audience.

I contrast this with the Christian/Islamic/Jewish apologists of the past. They were not writing for a small group of fellow co-religionists primarily. They wrote against their opponents because they believed themselves to have the stronger position. Whether they were right or not, they certainly had an impact.
Alma contains quotations from the Gospel of Matthew before Jesus was even born, and most bizarrely contains whole phrases from Paul a good century before he wrote any of his letters
I'm sure I'm not telling you something you don't already know, but they'll just say that's a "textual layer", Joseph Smith using the the KJV. Oh wait, since we have Early Modern English on the table, that is the reformers using the KJV in the spirit world -- the reformers did a looses translation so that Joseph Smith could do a "tight" translation.
Perhaps this can be linked up with the theory of "inspired fiction," for what is fiction anyway? Is the Midrash fiction? I know some liberal Mormons have tried to read the Book of Mormon that way, and it might be useful but it would require apologists to actually think with some originality. I really don't know if they have that in them, at least in sufficient quantity to overcome the deep satisfaction they derive from whining and playing-acting intellectual on blogs and comment sections of blogs.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Lem »

Symmachus wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:22 pm
....I would be more inclined to see the Early Modern English as a serious idea if its proponents thought their work was serious enough to argue for in the real world. The most I have seen in that direction was Skousen's introduction in the Yale edition Book of Mormon, where he just listed some Early Modern English examples—the same small set of examples he recycles over and over—as curiosities.
And not only that, Skousen recently retracted more than 60% of his previously published examples of 'archaism'.
Has he developed any relevant theories to explain them beyond "how could Joseph have known?" No. Has it lead to novel arguments that might advance our understanding of language survival, archaism, English dialectology, or methodology that would then motivate a counter response or at least some grudging respect for the Mormon position on this? No. It is therefore of no interest to anyone, and apologetics of this kind will have no value then to anyone but to its own insular audience.
Indeed. And even with the 60% retraction (which based on the types of analysis he is using will inevitably be followed by a retraction of the vast majority of what is left), there are still a number of apologists regularly citing his (mostly retracted) work to justify defining the Book of Mormon as an "early modern English text."
Perhaps this can be linked up with the theory of "inspired fiction,"
Gadiantion recently commented on this, and I would agree. It hasn't taken much work to introduce and gain a fair amount of acceptance for the idea that the Book of Mormon is a nearly Modern English text, an idea with literally no academic weight, and yet the mopologists tout it regularly. It's only a few more steps to inspired fiction.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by The Stig »

David Bokovoy regularly posts small but well-formed critiques of Mormon scripture and apologetic nonsense on his Facebook. He is one of the best to follow if you have any interest in such things.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

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Symmachus wrote: He openly questioned the survival of an ancient church, which was a serious indictment of the whole field; the reasons why were obvious, but the evidence he brought to bear and the mode of argumentation was hard to refute. The Protestant Hans Hillerbrand at Duke (he's still alive) wrote an anxiety-ridden reply, and then the eminent ecclesiastical historian Robert Grant (University of Chicago) wrote a response to both, acknowledging the strength of Nibley's argument but exposing some of its limitations. Nibley left patristics behind not long after this and moved into pamphleteering again
That's pretty fascinating. I wasn't aware that he had any impact on real-world scholarship. He had some published essays with lots of footnotes, but back in the day, powered by my own feeble research powers, I never discovered any real impact that he had. One day if you are bored, I wouldn't mind seeing your post outlining the full list of impacts he had that you are aware of. I'm sure the Rev has some ideas also.
I contrast this with the Christian/Islamic/Jewish apologists of the past. They were not writing for a small group of fellow co-religionists primarily. They wrote against their opponents because they believed themselves to have the stronger position. Whether they were right or not, they certainly had an impact.
An important point. I confined myself only to the theoretical model. Something besides "the church is true" or "the Book of Mormon is a precursor to modern-day libertarianism". The idea LGT began with, using walking distances as a constraint, I think was a good idea and qualifies as theoretical model. The idea that the Book of Mormon is ancient rather than history by God's fiat also sorta qualifies, but isn't specific enough about how the analysis is carried out. I feel I was hasty suggesting Early Modern English, because it sounds an awful lot like "stock market prices correlating with Canadian Geese migration patterns". And suspecting a Ghost Committee is like suspecting a goose conspiracy. But, it's closer to the mark than anything else I'm seeing.

Nibley, to me, seemed to have a long-running model that was the inverse of evolutionary models. Start from purity, ideas degenerate, but then ideas are restored again. He had the stones to go so far as to directly state that the atonement reversed the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Okay, I'm not sure I'm right about his grand project, but if so, was there something like the sound-shift law operating to figure that out? I'm not a huge Kuhn fan but he has some great starting points, and I think your sound-shift rule is the paradigmatic example of what grounds a proper research paradigm.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Dr Exiled »

Lem wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 5:11 pm

And not only that, Skousen recently retracted more than 60% of his previously published examples of 'archaism'.
I guess I forgot about this. That has to be a gut punch to the Interpreter Foundation and all the money wasted on such a crazy project. I guess Early Modern English won't be part of the Witnesses "theatrical film." I hoped at least some allusion to the Ghost Committee or Shakespeare was going to be in the movie. Perhaps Moroni speaks in Early Modern English? Anyway, having to admit that 60% was just gazing at clouds and inventing shapes that weren't really there should probably put the theory to rest, just like all the other failed theories the mopes invent to stave off complete falsification.

The Brethren really need to consult with David Bokovoy if they want to have some meat on the church bones. The finances are a hit and the investment arm needs to be commended. It'll only be a short while before it hits the $Trillion mark and Mormon jesus certainly will be grinning when that happens. However, there won't be that many members left to enjoy the bounty if it is just a money church with nonsense as its base.

Is that the plan? :shock:
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Fence Sitter »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:19 pm
A good example is Section 27. The whole thing about the sticks from Ezekiel first shows up in the 1835 version (it isn't a part of the original revelation) following an article that William Phelps wrote in which he merges several ideas from Jahn's Biblical Archaeology with details about the Gold Plates and the Book of Mormon. These are tacked on to the August, 1830 revelation and there we have Section 27.
Hi Ben,

Thank you for your very informative post.

I am doing research into the books that were used and or owned by Joseph Smith and the impact those books had on him and his work. We know Smith was familiar with Jahn's because he quoted from it in T&S Sept 1842. I would love to see more about the Phelps article. Can you provide more information on it and where I might find it?


Thanks
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