All 7 Of Jacob Hansen's Siblings Have Left The Church

[MG 2.0]

The troll’s goal isn’t to defend any particular point of view. The troll’s goal is to frustrate, harry and tire their target by twisting their own words back at them, forcing their target to defend themselves from their own words.

Nailed it! Sheesh. Look in the mirror, Marcus!

It's been a long time coming. But you nailed it.

Every. Word. Fits. You!!

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Let's try this again-----

Getting back to your topic,

...I thought I would try and pick up the question of Hansens' faith pyramid again. I did watch the presentation and though I can see a line of logic he follows there are other lines of consideration which should not be avoided. Yes logically a belief in a creator and in Jesus would undergird a belief in the church. If those are lacking then of course faith in the LDS church fails.

Hansen presents this as if a person approaches the possibility of God, reviews argument and evidence and makes a sure decision that God exists. I think everybody posting here and widely about the world realize that even if they value the arguments they are not a sure thing. There are alternative understandings regarding all arguments for the existence of God. The arguments against God are not frivolous...

Of course if you come to doubt the Book of Mormon as real history this faith confirmation takes a real blow. It is a shock that may make a person rethink all of their religious beliefs with a variety of possible results....

I hope you don't mind I excerpted the part I wanted to respond to. I think you are absolutely right that doubts about Mormon things can open up doubts across the board in terms of belief. Then people start thinking, but it's not leaving the LDS church that may result in a person deciding to be agnostic, it's the thinking that accompanied it.

As a believer I value the role of personal spiritual experience and awareness....

Even as a nonbeliever I also "value the role of personal spiritual experience and awareness", and If I recall correctly, we've talked about that before. I appreciate your take on this, thank you.

[I Have Questions]

Let's try this again-----

Getting back to your topic,

...I thought I would try and pick up the question of Hansens' faith pyramid again. I did watch the presentation and though I can see a line of logic he follows there are other lines of consideration which should not be avoided. Yes logically a belief in a creator and in Jesus would undergird a belief in the church. If those are lacking then of course faith in the LDS church fails.

Hansen presents this as if a person approaches the possibility of God, reviews argument and evidence and makes a sure decision that God exists. I think everybody posting here and widely about the world realize that even if they value the arguments they are not a sure thing. There are alternative understandings regarding all arguments for the existence of God. The arguments against God are not frivolous...

Of course if you come to doubt the Book of Mormon as real history this faith confirmation takes a real blow. It is a shock that may make a person rethink all of their religious beliefs with a variety of possible results....

I hope you don't mind I excerpted the part I wanted to respond to. I think you are absolutely right that doubts about Mormon things can open up doubts across the board in terms of belief. Then people start thinking, but it's not leaving the LDS church that may result in a person deciding to be agnostic, it's the thinking that accompanied it.

As a believer I value the role of personal spiritual experience and awareness....

Even as a nonbeliever I also "value the role of personal spiritual experience and awareness", and If I recall correctly, we've talked about that before. I appreciate your take on this, thank you.

I would add a couple of things. Faith in the LDS Church can fail BECAUSE of a belief in a creator and Jesus. Take for example the recent widespread and systemic financial wrongdoing that the Church was caught doing - If you believe in a creator and in Jesus then surely you believe they cannot be actually at the wheel of an organisation that wilfully lies and cheats? In such a scenario a belief in a creator and Jesus would drive a wedge between the believer's faith and their trust that their Church held a similar faithful belief.

Also, one can believe in the notion of "spirit" and "conscience" without readily conforming to a belief in a creator and a Jesus. We've demonstrated many times that people who leave the Church and who also leave all faith behind, are in the minority. Most retain a faith and a belief in something bigger than this existence, in whatever form they decide to frame it. At this point there are likely more people who have left active involvement in the LDS Church but retained a faith of some sort, than there are active LDS believers sat in the pews on any given Sunday.

[MG 2.0]

Let's try this again-----

Getting back to your topic,


I hope you don't mind I excerpted the part I wanted to respond to. I think you are absolutely right that doubts about Mormon things can open up doubts across the board in terms of belief. Then people start thinking, but it's not leaving the LDS church that may result in a person deciding to be agnostic, it's the thinking that accompanied it.
Even as a nonbeliever I also "value the role of personal spiritual experience and awareness", and If I recall correctly, we've talked about that before. I appreciate your take on this, thank you.

I would add a couple of things. Faith in the LDS Church can fail BECAUSE of a belief in a creator and Jesus. Take for example the recent widespread and systemic financial wrongdoing that the Church was caught doing - If you believe in a creator and in Jesus then surely you believe they cannot be actually at the wheel of an organisation that wilfully lies and cheats? In such a scenario a belief in a creator and Jesus would drive a wedge between the believer's faith and their trust that their Church held a similar faithful belief.

Also, one can believe in the notion of "spirit" and "conscience" without readily conforming to a belief in a creator and a Jesus. We've demonstrated many times that people who leave the Church and who also leave all faith behind, are in the minority. Most retain a faith and a belief in something bigger than this existence, in whatever form they decide to frame it. At this point there are likely more people who have left active involvement in the LDS Church but retained a faith of some sort, than there are active LDS believers sat in the pews on any given Sunday.

I backed off because I could see that Marcus wanted to continue the conversation without me. But it didn't go anywhere. So I will respond with hopes that she will not simply come back in, troll, and cancel me out...again.

First, I agree with you that a person could leave the LDS Church as a result of their own belief in who and what Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are. No argument there. Lynn Wilder is a good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQh-H3h4i9A

Here she expresses her testimony of Christ and His salvation given freely and without works being necessary.

Her view of what Christ expects and what He did for us...and requires of us...morphed from the LDS position to an evangelical position. Her son had a great influence on her. He converted to the Evangelical faith/postion while serving an LDS mission and forming a rock band to share the Good News.

So yes, you're right inasfar as you went with your statement. My argument, and Jacob Hansen's...I think, is that if a person (I've already said this) comes into the church without a foundation in Christ and belief in God and their testimony is based mostly, if not exclusively, on other things...they are more likely to succumb to influences that would take them out of the church.

Now in the instance of Lynn Wilder, it was a reconfiguration of who and what she saw in regards to Jesus and God. That's a bit different animal.

To your other concern, if a person already knows that the CofJCofLDS is God's true and living church they are going to look at things differently than you do in regards to the financial reserves that the church maintains. As it is, when the leadership acknowledged that they could do better in looking at the paper trail of monetary transactions and improve in what types of investments and watchdog procedures ought to be maintained...they changed their ways and committed to no further endeavors to go down the route that some folks considered to be unethical.

The nuts and bolts of this can be argued till the cows come home, but this has nothing to do with one's preexisting faith in God and the restoration of the Lord's church through the prophet Joseph Smith.

So again, it's God that comes first. I would again suggest that others go back and watch the video again and read through the thread. I don't want to rehash everything that has already been said.

Marcus? Your turn?

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

The troll’s goal isn’t to defend any particular point of view. The troll’s goal is to frustrate, harry and tire their target by twisting their own words back at them, forcing their target to defend themselves from their own words.

Nailed it! Sheesh. Look in the mirror, Marcus!

It's been a long time coming. But you nailed it.

Every. Word. Fits. You!!

Regards,
MG

That’s some great missionary work, MG. Keep shining that light for all to see. The church sure has made you a great person.

[MG 2.0]

Nailed it! Sheesh. Look in the mirror, Marcus!

It's been a long time coming. But you nailed it.

Every. Word. Fits. You!!

Regards,
MG

That’s some great missionary work, MG. Keep shining that light for all to see. The church sure has made you a great person.

I will do what I do as will you. But I won't intentionally lie as you do. I hope that without the church you are a great person.

We can both be great!

Lunch?

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

That’s some great missionary work, MG. Keep shining that light for all to see. The church sure has made you a great person.

I will do what I do as will you. But I won't intentionally lie as you do. I hope that without the church you are a great person.

We can both be great!

Lunch?

Regards,
MG

I suspect Everybody Wang Chung is a much greater person without the church than he was with it.

[MG 2.0]

I will do what I do as will you. But I won't intentionally lie as you do. I hope that without the church you are a great person.

We can both be great!

Lunch?

Regards,
MG

I suspect Everybody Wang Chung is a much greater person without the church than he was with it.

I guess I'm concerned about his truth telling and whether or not that matters when one can choose to live the life they want without Mormonism's constraints...telling the truth, being honest, etc.

I don't doubt he is a great person in many respects.

Regards,
Mg

[Marcus]

Let's try this again-----

Getting back to your topic,

I hope you don't mind I excerpted the part I wanted to respond to. I think you are absolutely right that doubts about Mormon things can open up doubts across the board in terms of belief. Then people start thinking, but it's not leaving the LDS church that may result in a person deciding to be agnostic, it's the thinking that accompanied it.

Even as a nonbeliever I also "value the role of personal spiritual experience and awareness", and If I recall correctly, we've talked about that before. I appreciate your take on this, thank you.

I would add a couple of things. Faith in the LDS Church can fail BECAUSE of a belief in a creator and Jesus.

Oh yes, absolutely. No argument there.

Take for example the recent widespread and systemic financial wrongdoing that the Church was caught doing - If you believe in a creator and in Jesus then surely you believe they cannot be actually at the wheel of an organisation that wilfully lies and cheats? In such a scenario a belief in a creator and Jesus would drive a wedge between the believer's faith and their trust that their Church held a similar faithful belief.

Yes. And it's one thing to make a mistake, but when you realize, as you noted, how 'widespread and systematic' the financial wrongdoing was, and especially how hard they worked to cover it up, it hits even harder.

Also, one can believe in the notion of "spirit" and "conscience" without readily conforming to a belief in a creator and a Jesus. We've demonstrated many times that people who leave the Church and who also leave all faith behind, are in the minority. Most retain a faith and a belief in something bigger than this existence, in whatever form they decide to frame it. At this point there are likely more people who have left active involvement in the LDS Church but retained a faith of some sort, than there are active LDS believers sat in the pews on any given Sunday.

Definitely. Well said.