What exactly Is Wrong with Polygamy anyway?

[IHAQ]

I ask again, who the heck is Shirley Cook?

Oh, she's nobody worth caring about, IHAQ. Feel free to sweep her under the rug. She's subhuman, so her needs can be ignored. Okay, sarcasm aside, she's a woman in my ward who died a couple of years ago after a long life, and I found out at her funeral that she had always wanted to get married and have children. IHAQ, is that an unreasonable desire for her to have had?

But Kevin, as I’ve already explained, she’s been promised marriage and motherhood in the next life. Stop projecting your desires onto Shirley Cook.

[IHAQ]

“What exactly is wrong with polygamy?” is a question only asked by men. Why? Why aren’t women pursuing the idea of polygamy?

Do you have any suggestions Kevin?

My suggestion, IHAQ, is that that is absolutely not true, as I have pointed out in previous posts. I don't think I had any interest in polygamy whatsoever before I met the woman in Seattle I mentioned who pretty much asked that same precise question.

This isn’t an interest in polygamy, you’re trying to justify your urge to cheat on your wife.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

My suggestion, IHAQ, is that that is absolutely not true, as I have pointed out in previous posts. I don't think I had any interest in polygamy whatsoever before I met the woman in Seattle I mentioned who pretty much asked that same precise question.

This isn’t an interest in polygamy, you’re trying to justify your urge to cheat on your wife.

Yeah, this is more and more looking like KS has his eye on someone at school and really wants to have a thing. Perhaps the words Kevin is looking for are ‘ethical non-monogamy’:

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/ ... gamy-guide

And, of course, he can always get a primer for polyamory on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/

As one can see, plenty of people are choosing their own version of relationship anarchy and aren’t waiting on the government to bless off on their union(s). From what I understand, there a lot of Mormon non-monogamists and it’s just a matter of finding your own cup of tea, as it were, Kevin.

- Doc

edit: In a universal synchronicity moment I checked out this post on r/saltlakecity:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SaltLakeCity/c ... m_i_wrong/

and apparently an upside down pineapple means that person is into, uh, nonmonogamy. So, there you go Kevin. Head on a swivel!

[doubtingthomas]

And, of course, he can always get a primer for polyamory on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/

This is the first thread (as of right now) of the page you just shared.

“Poly” guy I went on a date with recently
Why do men like this exist… his dating profile said he was “polyamorous” and during the first date he told me he can’t stay too long “cause his wife doesn’t know he’s poly”

Polyamory is a joke.

[doubtingthomas]

she's a woman in my ward who died a couple of years ago after a long life, and I found out at her funeral that she had always wanted to get married and have children. IHAQ, is that an unreasonable desire for her to have had?

Right now polygamy wouldn't work because for the ages of 18 to 33, there are a lot more single men than single women. Polygamy would make life harder for single men.

[sock puppet]

As everyone else on this thread has pointed out, an arrangement where one man has multiple wives, but the wives depend exclusively on the one man for everything one expects in a monogamous marriage, in inherently inequitable.

If it really is inherently inequitable, wouldn't it be that inequitable whether the man in question is married to the second woman or not? In other words, is there some difference in equity between a man married to two women, and a man married to one woman who is also carrying on a long term affair? And if there is no difference in equity, why is the former illegal and the latter legal?

I agree with you that there is no difference. That is why Joseph Smith was just your basic philanderer. Many states, including the one I live in, makes both illegal, but law enforcement does not bother either type of situation.

On further thought, maybe there is a difference. If you "marry" your side chick(s), are you misleading them into thinking that you'll live life with and be there for them in the way a husband typically does (beyond just sexual relations with them)? Perhaps secret polygamy, Joseph Smith style, is more insidious than mere adultery where there is no such expectation via the promises made in a marriage ceremony.

[KevinSim]

Perhaps this question should be posed to the Church itself. If there’s nothing wrong with it, why is it a mandatory excommunicable offense, even if done in a country where it’s legal? Even teaching/advocating for it is excommunicable; one doesn't even need to practice it.

It's also pretty much a mandatory excommunicable offense for two women to marry, or two men, and that's legal in the United States now. My whole question is, why is polygamy illegal while same sex marriage is legal? The big argument for same sex marriage is marriage equality. Do women who want to marry but can't because no males are left who meet their (often very reasonable) standards, like my acquaintance Shirley Cook, have marriage equality?

Whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ever starts practicing polygamy again like it did in the past, is between its leaders and God. I personally doubt that Church will ever bring it back, and I don't want it to bring it back, though I do sympathize with people like Shirley Cook. I just don't understand why polygamy should be illegal in the United States.

[Res Ipsa]

Perhaps this question should be posed to the Church itself. If there’s nothing wrong with it, why is it a mandatory excommunicable offense, even if done in a country where it’s legal? Even teaching/advocating for it is excommunicable; one doesn't even need to practice it.

It's also pretty much a mandatory excommunicable offense for two women to marry, or two men, and that's legal in the United States now. My whole question is, why is polygamy illegal while same sex marriage is legal? The big argument for same sex marriage is marriage equality. Do women who want to marry but can't because no males are left who meet their (often very reasonable) standards, like my acquaintance Shirley Cook, have marriage equality?

Whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ever starts practicing polygamy again like it did in the past, is between its leaders and God. I personally doubt that Church will ever bring it back, and I don't want it to bring it back, though I do sympathize with people like Shirley Cook. I just don't understand why polygamy should be illegal in the United States.

The answer is historical contingency. It's really not that hard. Mormon polygamy got a bad reputation in the 1800s. By ultimately condemning the practice, the LDS church took away the only organized sect that could credibly lobby to change the laws. The splinter sects that continued the practice resulted in illegal acts (other than the polygamy itself) that horrified folks in general.

The demonization of Islam after 9/11 likely had some effect as well, as Islam is a major religion that permits polygyny.

Overreach by law enforcement in one of the early raids on Short Creek created some sympathy for the FLDS, but Warren Jeffs pretty much killed that. Shows like Big Love worked toward normalizing the practice. But the bottom line is there is no significant, organized political constituency in the U.S. that is advocating for the legalization of polygamous marriage.

There are also practical issues in terms of stability of home ownership and child rearing. There is no reason to expect that a three-person marriage would be more stable than a two-person marriage. The more partners, the more often we should expect one or more to become dissatisfied and want to leave the marriage. Current divorce law, which leaves child custody up to the whim of the judge and often results in the sale of the family home, would not foster any kind of stable environment for child raising. Now, the property issues could be partially addressed by incorporating the family and creating set, contractual terms with a fixed buy-in and buy out. But I think it would be unrealistic to expect the state to change it's rules concerning best interests of the children and the obligation of the biological parents to financially support their children. These practical complications alone are going to cause significant resistance by legislators to legalizing polygamy.

In contrast, very little change to laws at all was required to extend marriage to people of the same sex.

I think that's a pretty fair answer to your why question. Change in laws and social customs is incremental. Legislators change what they think needs to be changed, and they have no obligation to sift through the entire state code to make sure the change is philosophically consistent with existing law.

Here's my question for you: does society have an obligation to give every single person everything they want? I, personally, do not think society has any obligation at all to guarantee that every person gets to be married to a person that meets their individual standards. Why do you think society has that obligation?

[KevinSim]

Smith kept it hidden because he knew Emma was strongly opposed to it. Just because one's spouse is strongly opposed to something doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

Good gravy.

I'd say that when it comes to marrying other women, if your sole spouse is strongly opposed to it, then it makes it necessarily, objectively, and unapologetically wrong to marry other women while they are your spouse.

That's kind of how relationships, in particular marriage, work.

Doctor Steuss, back in 1999 I had a faith crisis, and was really wondering if God actually wanted me in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It occurred to me that the things that church's critics were saying about that church might just possibly be true, and that that church might be as deceptive as they said it was. I had strong doubts that I, as one man, could get to the bottom of all the relevant issues; it was simply beyond me to do all the work involved in giving the LDS Church's truth claims a fair trial. But I could spearhead a faith organization that would give those truth claims that fair trial. I brought up these ideas I was having with my wife, and she strongly opposed them, so strongly that she got me to promise I wouldn't pursue them. In 2002 I was unemployed, and started thinking of my faith organization again, as an employment opportunity in addition to being a way to resolve my faith crisis. Again my wife told me she strongly opposed it. Finally I promised her (again) that I wouldn't pursue it, and I've never thought seriously about starting up that faith organization again. Is that just how relationships, particularly marriages work, Doctor Steuss? My wife strongly wants me ro stay active in the LDS Church and strongly wants me to avoid starting up organizations that might get me excommunicated, and therefore, being a good husband I should just do what she wants me to do?

[Doctor Steuss]

Doctor Steuss, back in 1999 I had a faith crisis, and was really wondering if God actually wanted me in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It occurred to me that the things that church's critics were saying about that church might just possibly be true, and that that church might be as deceptive as they said it was. I had strong doubts that I, as one man, could get to the bottom of all the relevant issues; it was simply beyond me to do all the work involved in giving the LDS Church's truth claims a fair trial. But I could spearhead a faith organization that would give those truth claims that fair trial. I brought up these ideas I was having with my wife, and she strongly opposed them, so strongly that she got me to promise I wouldn't pursue them. In 2002 I was unemployed, and started thinking of my faith organization again, as an employment opportunity in addition to being a way to resolve my faith crisis. Again my wife told me she strongly opposed it. Finally I promised her (again) that I wouldn't pursue it, and I've never thought seriously about starting up that faith organization again. Is that just how relationships, particularly marriages work, Doctor Steuss? My wife strongly wants me ro stay active in the LDS Church and strongly wants me to avoid starting up organizations that might get me excommunicated, and therefore, being a good husband I should just do what she wants me to do?

I don't think we have any common moral or ethical ground to build upon in this conversation.

That you see the above as morally and ethically equivalent to marrying other women behind your wife's back has me a bit gobsmacked.