What is a spiritual experience?

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Marcus
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Re: What is a spiritual experience?

Post by Marcus »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:50 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:53 am
Why did you wait until Gadianton suggested you change the term? Lots of other people had already encouraged you to change it, but you belligerently refused all of them.
The neurodiversity comparison has problems too, as Gad pointed out, but he conveniently ignored that. And he still prefers the more offensive term [spiritual autism], he says. That says it all right there. He learned nothing.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 5:38 pm
...I would encourage those that haven’t read the earlier discussion to do so and determine for themselves whether or not I’ve been abusive or insulting in any way....

The location of this part of the conversation begins here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=159192&start=80

and then moves along to the next page and thereafter. I believe context is always important, especially when dealing with those that take things out of context and invent their own...
Your 'context' culminates here, as Riverdale repeats their plea to you for at least the fourth time:
Rivendale wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:16 am
Please stop. This is getting worse. Almost to the point of revulsion. You absolutely can not equate disabled people integrating with mainstream society with a spiritual realm. You have no evidence that these adaptive strategies are parallel to a spiritual foggy lens. It is offensive and horrific to all the people who have disabled kids.
I agree, please stop.
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Re: What is a spiritual experience?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 5:53 pm
Marcus wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:50 pm
The neurodiversity comparison has problems too, as Gad pointed out, but he conveniently ignored that. And he still prefers the more offensive term [spiritual autism], he says. That says it all right there. He learned nothing.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 5:38 pm
...I would encourage those that haven’t read the earlier discussion to do so and determine for themselves whether or not I’ve been abusive or insulting in any way....

The location of this part of the conversation begins here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=159192&start=80

and then moves along to the next page and thereafter. I believe context is always important, especially when dealing with those that take things out of context and invent their own...
Your 'context' culminates here, as Riverdale repeats their plea to you for at least the fourth time:
Rivendale wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:16 am
Please stop. This is getting worse. Almost to the point of revulsion. You absolutely can not equate disabled people integrating with mainstream society with a spiritual realm. You have no evidence that these adaptive strategies are parallel to a spiritual foggy lens. It is offensive and horrific to all the people who have disabled kids.
I agree, please stop.
I think enough has been said.

Regards,
MG
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Re: What is a spiritual experience?

Post by I Have Questions »

I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:53 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 5:17 am
So that people could go all the way back to where the discussion originally started. Kripal and spiritual autism. It was more of a ‘bookmark’ than anything else. Later in the conversation with the suggestion by gadianton, I changed the term to spiritual neurodiversity/neurodivergent to satisfy a few that were having a personal problem with the other term. That’s it, in black and white.

I still prefer the other.

Regards,
MG
Why did you wait until Gadianton suggested you change the term? Lots of other people had already encouraged you to change it, but you belligerently refused all of them.
Bump
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Rivendale
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Re: What is a spiritual experience?

Post by Rivendale »

I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:01 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:53 am
Why did you wait until Gadianton suggested you change the term? Lots of other people had already encouraged you to change it, but you belligerently refused all of them.
Bump
This kind of behavior reminds me of the Mormonism live episode with Tim Kosnoff. Tim is a lawyer that has made a career suing the church for sex abuse cases. When posed with the question as to why the church dosen't take the high road and simply let law enforcement handle abuse cases he had an interesting answer. He claims the institution has perfected individual and collective arrogance. They will not be told what to do under any circumstances. This behavior bleeds into members and creates righteous dominion that supercedes any criticism. I think we see a perfect example here. When pressed with changing two words in a horrible analogy they simply dig their heels in and refuse.
Marcus
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Re: What is a spiritual experience?

Post by Marcus »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:28 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:01 pm
Bump
This kind of behavior reminds me of the Mormonism live episode with Tim Kosnoff. Tim is a lawyer that has made a career suing the church for sex abuse cases. When posed with the question as to why the church dosen't take the high road and simply let law enforcement handle abuse cases he had an interesting answer. He claims the institution has perfected individual and collective arrogance. They will not be told what to do under any circumstances. This behavior bleeds into members and creates righteous dominion that supercedes any criticism. I think we see a perfect example here. When pressed with changing two words in a horrible analogy they simply dig their heels in and refuse.
That's an excellent summing up. Some LDS members are exceptionally good at illustrating that "unrighteous dominion that [they insist] supercedes any criticism," regardless of how warranted any criticism is. It's not the positive attribute they assure themselves it is, but they don't seem to realize that.
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Physics Guy
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Re: What is a spiritual experience?

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As I've mentioned here in other threads, I don't believe that spirit is a substance. In fact I think that thinking of spirit as a kind of stuff is looking in the opposite direction from what might really deserve the name "spiritual". The thing that might well be real, and that would also do the jobs that people mostly want spirit to do, is not an extra simple ingredient that can be added like hot sauce, but rather meaningful pattern that is too complex for humans to perceive clearly.

I'm used to studying the simplest patterns in Nature, involving only a handful of particles doing a few different things, or else large masses of identical particles all doing the same few things. Even within physics one notices an alarming meta-pattern, however. On the one hand, when you look more closely at even the simplest things, they turn out not to be so simple after all. And on the other hand, the number of complicated new things that can happen when more pieces come together never seems to end.

Lately I've been trying to learn some more chemistry and even a bit of biology, and that meta-pattern seems to continue with a vengeance. Electrons do their things within atoms, and atoms jostle around in their molecules, and molecules flop around, and sometimes split and rejoin ... and it's all part of a membrane, which is part of a mitochondrion, which is part of a cell, which is part of an organ. The organs and cells and organelles are not made of anything besides the molecules and atoms and electrons, but their collective behaviours are long, involved stories at their own levels.

Perhaps a sufficiently superhuman mind might not even recognize human concepts like "metabolism", or even "reaction", because they would have no trouble following these phenomena in atomic terms, like an orchestral conductor brilliant enough to glance at a score and hear each quarter-note. Or perhaps grouping things into blocks, and recognizing distinct levels of story, is just what it means to perceive and understand things, and superhuman minds will still do it as we do, just better.

We humans at any rate---at any rate, some of us---are recognising that our own minds themselves are surely higher-level atomic phenomena, like wind or fire or metabolism, only more complicated. And yet the impression I get from scientific materialists who write for the public about this kind of subject is in one way surprisingly limited. These writers can be clear, even eloquent, about how atoms jumble around, and end up making large, complex molecules, even though the atoms themselves are simply doing their atom-y things without any grand plan. Then those molecules wobble and tumble, and we get complex machines. Yada yada yada, neurons, nets, and the mind.

Then it stops. The human mind is the pinnacle of creation, the ultimate meaningful pattern made up of mindless components. Above us there is nothing but "chance", whatever that word might mean. The greater cosmos is meaningless. Nothing more to see here.

This just seems too convenient. The more plausible explanation to me is that we stop seeing meaningful patterns more complex than our own minds, not because those patterns don't exist, but just because our minds cannot hold them. We are like mitochondria diligently recombining ATP molecules without any notion that we are part of a cell, let alone of a brain.

Perhaps sometimes we get a bit of a glimpse of a bigger story. Or perhaps we only think we do. Getting some inkling of something bigger than we are seems possible, though; perhaps not even just the guess that there is something bigger, but some more specific glimpse of what that bigger something is like, expressed in dumbed-down terms we can grasp, like a dog forming a dim, doggy concept, probably about food, of what it means to be part of a human family.

Experiences like that would seem to me to play the role that people seem to assign to things they call "spiritual experiences". And I think that glimpses of a superhuman pattern, even just as a hypothetical possibility, are an important enough concept to warrant a name. So I'm inclined to adopt the existing term "spiritual" for them. Perhaps this risks confusion; but I'd be willing to argue that this is what people have actually meant by "spiritual" all along, whether they knew it or not.
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Gadianton
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Re: What is a spiritual experience?

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Physics guy wrote:As I've mentioned here in other threads, I don't believe that spirit is a substance. In fact I think that thinking of spirit as a kind of stuff is looking in the opposite direction from what might really deserve the name "spiritual". The thing that might well be real, and that would also do the jobs that people mostly want spirit to do, is not an extra simple ingredient that can be added like hot sauce, but rather meaningful pattern that is too complex for humans to perceive clearly.

I'm used to studying the simplest patterns in Nature, involving only a handful of particles doing a few different things, or else large masses of identical particles all doing the same few things. Even within physics one notices an alarming meta-pattern, however. On the one hand, when you look more closely at even the simplest things, they turn out not to be so simple after all. And on the other hand, the number of complicated new things that can happen when more pieces come together never seems to end.

Lately I've been trying to learn some more chemistry and even a bit of biology, and that meta-pattern seems to continue with a vengeance. Electrons do their things within atoms, and atoms jostle around in their molecules, and molecules flop around, and sometimes split and rejoin ... and it's all part of a membrane, which is part of a mitochondrion, which is part of a cell, which is part of an organ. The organs and cells and organelles are not made of anything besides the molecules and atoms and electrons, but their collective behaviours are long, involved stories at their own levels.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're contemplating emergence, or even the possibility of radical emergence. And I seem to recall you shooting down emergence ideas in the past -- but it's possible I misunderstood.

To be meaningful objectively, there would need to be an underlying commonality to all reported spiritual experience. And I just don't think there is. That's half my point. I agree people feel pain. I don't agree that people feel the spirit, even subjectively. Yes, some people have intense emotional experiences. I agree with that. But it's a personal and cultural thing to leap from having the emotional experience to claiming it's a spiritual experience that is clear and distinct from mere emotions. And not everyone will interpret overpowering emotions as spiritual; some will be more skeptical than others. And especially in Mormonism, because it doesn't try very hard to produce manifestation events, many will go the route of interpreting other kinds of mundane things as spiritual experiences. An accountant might find an analogy to "the books adding up" one night after reading Alma and this is what he drops as his spiritual confirmation. The other half of the point is even if you are right that there is a such thing as "spiritual experiences," which requires some kind of commonality, you may need to deny some or many self-reports in order to achieve that commonality.

Feeling pain can be a cultural phenomena to the extent there are incentives to lie about pain. For instance, as a Mormon parent, your teenage kid might complain of a headache in order to get out of going to church and you may throw that accusation. However, if your teenagers says, "after reading Alma last night, I closed my eyes and saw a butterfly. It was the same butterfly I saw at the beach last summer and I think, I really feel the truth that Alma was telling me," then you're going to take it at face value and rejoice. Culturally, spiritual experiences are such that they are real at face value, unlike pain or a good acid trip. No bishop has ever told a congregation member that their testimony experience didn't happen. If spiritual experiences were real like pain is real, then you'd want to weed out false reports in order to guide your parishioner to the real deal.
Then it stops. The human mind is the pinnacle of creation, the ultimate meaningful pattern made up of mindless components. Above us there is nothing but "chance", whatever that word might mean. The greater cosmos is meaningless. Nothing more to see here.

This just seems too convenient. The more plausible explanation to me is that we stop seeing meaningful patterns more complex than our own minds, not because those patterns don't exist, but just because our minds cannot hold them. We are like mitochondria diligently recombining ATP molecules without any notion that we are part of a cell, let alone of a brain.
Some might call that the noumena. There may be meaningfulness above our pay grade, but if we don't have access to it, then we ought not act like we do.
Experiences like that would seem to me to play the role that people seem to assign to things they call "spiritual experiences". And I think that glimpses of a superhuman pattern, even just as a hypothetical possibility, are an important enough concept to warrant a name. So I'm inclined to adopt the existing term "spiritual" for them. Perhaps this risks confusion; but I'd be willing to argue that this is what people have actually meant by "spiritual" all along, whether they knew it or not.
That sounds like Nigh Nibley's interpretation. You seem to be admitting that people can be wrong about their spiritual experiences. It's a reality that isn't contingent upon self-reports. Like, when James Watson saw the pattern of DNA in a dream -- that's a spiritual experience, assuming he really did see it in his dream, which is possible.
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Re: What is a spiritual experience?

Post by Physics Guy »

I don't mean to argue that people must be right about whatever they report as spiritual experiences. People's impressions of things that we do understand are often totally misleading, so reports of things that we don't understand are quite dubious. My point is only that it is at least plausible that there could be something really there to report. Any given claim about it may well be nonsense, and perhaps most such claims are bound to be.

Even authentic spiritual experiences, if there are any, may be misunderstood. They would likely be like the diverse experiences of the blind researchers reporting about the elephant. One finds it snake-like, another finds it wall-like, another tree-like, another fan-like. All of them do have some truth. None of them sees the elephant for what it really is.
Some people have intense emotional experiences ... but it's a personal and cultural thing to leap from having the emotional experience to claiming it's a spiritual experience that is clear and distinct from mere emotions. ... Many will go the route of interpreting other kinds of mundane things as spiritual experiences.
I don't think that contrasting "spiritual experience" and "mere emotion" even makes sense. It's like contrasting wind and particle motion, when in fact wind is just the fact that a lot of particles are tending on average, very slightly, to move in a common direction. An emotion might or might not be spiritual, on my definition, just as a particular atomic excitation might or might not be part of a metabolic process. There is no metabolism without some electrons jumping around a bit, but most atoms are not part of living cells. In the same way, I expect that spiritual experiences might often involve emotions, but what makes the experience spiritual is not any quality of the emotions themselves.

I don't know whether I'm talking about "emergence" or not. Discussions of emergence that I have read so far have never convinced me that they were talking about anything definite at all. It seemed to be an exercise in pretending to understand more than one does, by introducing new terms. There are examples on lower levels of complexity of the kind of thing that I mean, like the derivation of hydrodynamics from particle mechanics. I find it very interesting how such so-called "effective theories" as hydrodynamics emerge, if that's what they do, but I haven't been able to recognize much of this kind of behaviour in discussions I've read of "emergence".

In particular I resist the idea that differences like the difference between hydrodynamics and particle motion are anything mystical or magical. To me it's a crude matter of buffer size. Our brains' working memory just isn't big enough to keep track of all the particles, and our kludgy workaround is to bundle the particles together into huge blobs and only keep track of the average properties of the blobs.

Some of these kludgy workarounds turn out to work pretty darn well, and that's interesting. The fact that the world admits kludgy workarounds is profound. I just don't think we should lose sight of the fact that they are still kludgy workarounds. So I resist fancy terms like "emergence". It seems like a step back from understanding, an effort to smuggle the ghost back into the machine without even admitting it.
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Re: What is a spiritual experience?

Post by Gadianton »

Physics Guy wrote:And I think that glimpses of a superhuman pattern, even just as a hypothetical possibility, are an important enough concept to warrant a name
What you're saying is actually really in line with what Mormons believe; Hugh Nibley for sure. Well, Mormons believe a lot of things that don't come together coherently. But as an example, every Christmas Mormons around the globe perform Handel's Messiah, and for them Handel himself is one of these honorary Mormons. Mormons are obsessed with the greats of history, and as Brigham Young said, "claim their ideas as our own." And so every Christmas, I must have heard the story at least twice, that the music to the Messiah came to Handel as a completed piece, implying it was a revelation from God. I think there could be other descriptions that fit as well as a spiritual experience, but you made a pretty good argument for why you would call it that.

If I were religious, I would worry that this model of spiritual experience doesn't leave a lot of room for the common person. Shouldn't the average person struggling day-to-day just to get by, warrant a feeling of peace from the Lord that could be called a spiritual experience? Shouldn't a commoner who needs direction be allowed a flash of insight to help them get by, or is it only reserved for the outlier brainiacs?
I don't think that contrasting "spiritual experience" and "mere emotion" even makes sense. It's like contrasting wind and particle motion, when in fact wind is just the fact that a lot of particles are tending on average, very slightly, to move in a common direction. An emotion might or might not be spiritual, on my definition
An emotion might not be spiritual for Mormons either, that's what makes it so maddening. Moroni says that if you read and pray about the Book of Mormon that the spirit will cause your bosom to burn within you. And so Mormons are seeking this powerful manifestation that is emotive, but at the same time, they don't want to "trick" themselves into feeling it. It's an important goal, because in Mormon culture, that manifestation out of nowhere that zaps your soul to the core is an epistemic event that grounds knowledge. Once you achieve that burning, you've been told the Book of Mormon is true. It is no longer a matter of faith. And that's what Mormons want, "to know for sure." Kind of like seeing a UFO for yourself. You want that light in the sky to be a UFO, but you also don't want to trick yourself, you want to really see one for sure.

Of course, Mormons believe there are other kinds of spiritual experiences, and these experiences aren't necessarily about knowledge.
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