Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[honorentheos]

It's not objectively true that a subordinate lost their job. One of the two founding members of the start up was pushed out when the dynamic changed and the board exerted it's oversight role

First, there's no indication within Open Stories Foundation's founding documents that Rosebud was a "founding" member of the board of directors...Rosebud clearly wasn't a founding board member, most likely didn't make it onto the board until some time in 2011, so why are John and posters like honorentheos so insistent that she was?

Or maybe I'm wrong and John can clarify when, exactly, Rosebud joined the Open Stories Foundation board of directors?

You have the argument wrong. A board is formed after a start-up has been in motion for a while. Forming a board is a late step, not a first step, and a board could be composed of just about anyone. Boards provide oversight, they don't define ownership or indicate the operational organization.

Before Open Stories Foundation was formed, Mormon Stories was just a podcast. The vision that became Open Stories Foundation was created by people before there was a board or an Open Stories Foundation. Who were those people? If you like you can check out this post from January 2011 describing the vision that became Open Stories Foundation while Mormon Stories is described as a solo operation of one John Dehlin in the comments: https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/2 ... /#comments

In the various sources on this period, both John and Rosebud describe something that isn't a subordinate/employer relationship. It's partners working on a vision that involved building on the Mormon Stories brand that was fairly ambitious. Multiple Mormon focused podcasts, Mormon Matters, conferences and local/regional communities...all before there was a board.

If you read carefully what was said in this thread about why this matters, it was pointed out that these kinds of partnerships don't map onto the corporate structure on which you base the arguments for sexual harassment. There's a partnership building up a vision that resulted in the creation of Open Stories Foundation. Mormon Stories was a nucleus around which this was able to arrange. When the personal relationship - an adulterous affair - went south like it was inevitably going to do, it only ever had one outcome possible. But it didn't have to be the affair, it could have been anything that affected their personal relationship.

Anyway, speaking for honorentheos because I speak only for myself unlike some people I guess, I'm not arguing Rosebud was a founding board. member. That would make me ignorant of the significance and role of a board member in this kind of situation.

[Tavares Standfield]

I'm getting some strong NNN vibes from this. Weird.

- Doc

I used to like NNN until he sent me unsolicited dick pics via Tiktok.

[Mayan Elephant]

I'm getting some strong NNN vibes from this. Weird.

- Doc

I used to like NNN until he sent me unsolicited dick pics via Tiktok.

Tavares, I am sorry to hear about this traumatic experience. I hope Tiktok was okay after that.

Good to see/read you again. Is it true, that you spent the pandemic running a charter young men/young women group on zoom just for kids that were coping with separation from their young men/young women group and wanted out but still wanted to be considered members of their young men/young women group and call themselves young men/young women without being called young men/young women by other people? I heard you had to hire extra volunteer staff just to block the kids that were in, then were out, but wanted to talk sh*t, so they had to be blocked. All that is true, right?

[jpatterson]

First, there's no indication within Open Stories Foundation's founding documents that Rosebud was a "founding" member of the board of directors...Rosebud clearly wasn't a founding board member, most likely didn't make it onto the board until some time in 2011, so why are John and posters like honorentheos so insistent that she was?

Or maybe I'm wrong and John can clarify when, exactly, Rosebud joined the Open Stories Foundation board of directors?

You have the argument wrong. A board is formed after a start-up has been in motion for a while. Forming a board is a late step, not a first step, and a board could be composed of just about anyone. Boards provide oversight, they don't define ownership or indicate the operational organization.

Before Open Stories Foundation was formed, Mormon Stories was just a podcast. The vision that became Open Stories Foundation was created by people before there was a board or an Open Stories Foundation. Who were those people? If you like you can check out this post from January 2011 describing the vision that became Open Stories Foundation while Mormon Stories is described as a solo operation of one John Dehlin in the comments: https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/2 ... /#comments

In the various sources on this period, both John and Rosebud describe something that isn't a subordinate/employer relationship. It's partners working on a vision that involved building on the Mormon Stories brand that was fairly ambitious. Multiple Mormon focused podcasts, Mormon Matters, conferences and local/regional communities...all before there was a board.

If you read carefully what was said in this thread about why this matters, it was pointed out that these kinds of partnerships don't map onto the corporate structure on which you base the arguments for sexual harassment. There's a partnership building up a vision that resulted in the creation of Open Stories Foundation. Mormon Stories was a nucleus around which this was able to arrange. When the personal relationship - an adulterous affair - went south like it was inevitably going to do, it only ever had one outcome possible. But it didn't have to be the affair, it could have been anything that affected their personal relationship.

Anyway, speaking for honorentheos because I speak only for myself unlike some people I guess, I'm not arguing Rosebud was a founding board. member. That would make me ignorant of the significance and role of a board member in this kind of situation.

You're conflating for-profit startup characteristics with non-profit corporation characteristics. Non-profits are organizations that are owned by a board of directors, not by any individual. The founding members of a startup are the legal founders who have stake in the company. The founding members of a non-profit are legally the board members as constituted under the articles of incorporation.

John made a conscious and very informed decision in 2010 to take his successful but fledgling podcast operation and turn it into a non-profit in order to maximize donations so he could pay for his PhD. That's very much different than someone founding a startup and then taking on partners. It's very, very different.

You're wholly incorrect in your description of Open Stories Foundation's founding history. John founded Open Stories Foundation in early 2010 with himself as the sole board member. He did so in AZ because that was a state that required only one board member to incorporate. Later, friends and volunteers advised John that if he wanted to stay square with the IRS, he should bring on some independent board members. He did so in the fall of 2010, bringing on 3-4 close acquaintances, including his attorney. This was the founding board of Open Stories Foundation, established in 2010.

Rosebud wasn't voted onto the board until June of 2011, a full eight months after the Open Stories Foundation board had been established and was operating.

John founded Open Stories Foundation. He ran the day-to-day operations. He wanted a disempowered board. He brought Rosebud on as a volunteer, then made a quid-pro-quo deal with her to bring her on full time. She wasn't his partner in a startup.

All of this is very well documented.

Rosebud wasn't any sort of founding anything. She wasn't a founding member, not a founding board member, she was a volunteer who went to work for John, then was added to the board, then hired to work for...wait for it...John.

You and I are in agreement that Rosebud's story does not meet the legal definition of sexual harassment. But that's not the argument I'm making (or that John has made over the years).

[honorentheos]

The 2010 (filed August 2011) and 2011 Open Stories Foundation IRS filings show Rosebud making 0 dollars and spending the bare minimum of 0.1 hrs/week to sit on the board along with every other board member besides John Dehlin.

It's a board with oversight responsibilities. She is never shown with earnings through the Open Stories Foundation board on any tax filings. She is shown as a board member in a director position (with a number of other people). Podcasters today with Open Stories Foundation are not shown as board members being compensated as such. The board has oversight responsibilities. It is not the employment structure for Open Stories Foundation.

Taking Mormon Stories from a podcast to the vision of Open Stories Foundation with multiple podcasts, Facebook communities, etc , etc., involved multiple people. Rosebud's own description of how she and John began to collaborate involved her description of the Facebook groups and community building that she claims was her baby in the endeavor.

[jpatterson]

The 2010 (filed August 2011) and 2011 Open Stories Foundation IRS filings show Rosebud making 0 dollars and spending the bare minimum of 0.1 hrs/week to sit on the board along with every other board member besides John Dehlin.

It's a board with oversight responsibilities. She is never shown with earnings through the Open Stories Foundation board on any tax filings. She is shown as a board member in a director position (with a number of other people). Podcasters today with Open Stories Foundation are not shown as board members being compensated as such. The board has oversight responsibilities. It is not the employment structure for Open Stories Foundation.

Taking Mormon Stories from a podcast to the vision of Open Stories Foundation with multiple podcasts, Facebook communities, etc , etc., involved multiple people. Rosebud's own description of how she and John began to collaborate involved her description of the Facebook groups and community building that she claims was her baby in the endeavor.

John said here, within this thread in fact, that she was a founding board member. She wasn't.

That is what is at issue here, not the above.

[honorentheos]

The 2010 (filed August 2011) and 2011 Open Stories Foundation IRS filings show Rosebud making 0 dollars and spending the bare minimum of 0.1 hrs/week to sit on the board along with every other board member besides John Dehlin.

It's a board with oversight responsibilities. She is never shown with earnings through the Open Stories Foundation board on any tax filings. She is shown as a board member in a director position (with a number of other people). Podcasters today with Open Stories Foundation are not shown as board members being compensated as such. The board has oversight responsibilities. It is not the employment structure for Open Stories Foundation.

Taking Mormon Stories from a podcast to the vision of Open Stories Foundation with multiple podcasts, Facebook communities, etc , etc., involved multiple people. Rosebud's own description of how she and John began to collaborate involved her description of the Facebook groups and community building that she claims was her baby in the endeavor.

John said here, within this thread in fact, that she was a founding board member. She wasn't.

That is what is at issue here, not the above.

You quoted a week old post I made wondering why I was insisting Rosebud was a founding board member. I told you you had the argument wrong. I wasn't saying she was, I was saying the relationship didn't map onto a traditional superior/employee relationship because of the start-up nature of Open Stories Foundation at that stage. You then attempted to say being on the board was the same as being employed by John Dehlin. Tax filing show that's wrong, which was the point made earlier - being a board member isn't what defines John and Rosebud's working relationship. You now say the issue is, was, and will always be about John claiming Rosebud was a founding board member. If that's the case, your post quoting mine was a dumb mistake, which takes you back to the start of this paragraph. Feel free to read it on repeat as many times as needed.

So it seems you didn't understand what board membership entails, probably still don't given you insist it matters in a discussion on if John Dehlin sexually harassed Rosebud because they had an affair and she ended up outside the Open Stories Foundation tent when the dust settled holding CTW and the germ of a grudge she's put a lot of effort into nurturing.

Anyway, she's listed on the 2010 filing as a board member ($0 compensation, 0.1 hrs/week commitment). Open Stories Foundation received their letter confirming their NFP status in late January 2011. Documents say she was a founding board member so you are arguing against evidence with that claim, too. Hope whatever you expect to get out of this is worth all the wrongness you're accruing.

[jpatterson]

This is what I was quoting that you said:

One of the two founding members of the start up

It's not accurate to say she was a founding member, nor a founding board member. Neither of those descriptors are supported by fact.

Open Stories Foundation was organized in early (Feb/March) 2010. It took on additional board members in Oct/Nov. Those additional members did NOT include Rosebud. She was brought on in June of 2011, again, more than a year after Open Stories Foundation was organized and more than 9 months after anything constituting a full board was established.

Open Stories Foundation is also not a start up and never was. It is organized as a non-profit.

[jpatterson]

Anyway, she's listed on the 2010 filing as a board member ($0 compensation, 0.1 hrs/week commitment). Open Stories Foundation received their letter confirming their NFP status in late January 2011. Documents say she was a founding board member so you are arguing against evidence with that claim, too. Hope whatever you expect to get out of this is worth all the wrongness you're accruing.

I don't know where you're getting these dates from.

According to the Arizona Corporation Commission, Open Stories Foundation was incorporated on Feb 23, 2010. They put a legal notice in the paper as to the incorporation in early March of 2010.

You may be referring to the annual report they filed in 2011. But it's very clear from public documents that Open Stories Foundation incorporated in early 2010, with John as the sole board member, then Open Stories Foundation brought on 4 additional board members (again, not Rosebud) that fall.

I understand John put Rosebud down as a board member in the 2010 990 filing but, I hate to tell you, that was either an oversight on his part or just a lie. Rosebud was clearly not voted onto the board until June of 2011. So he backdated her board membership for some reason.

Only he can answer why he did that.

[honorentheos]

Of course Open Stories Foundation was organized as a non-profit, whose status was confirmed in January 2011. I believe the letter was dated January 27, 2011, to be exact.

The vision, the parts, the work to make it happen didn't begin with the organization of Open Stories Foundation's board. Rosebud was part of that, and claims the vision for local Facebook communities and conferences was hers that she presented to John that he found exciting, and from which their involvement together began. You're saying her vision and involvement post-dated early January 2011 when every one of those features are included in the vision John shared for where Mormon Stories was heading? You're saying Open Stories Foundation filed false tax information listing Rosebud was a board member in 2010?