healing/recovery through venting?

[_Runtu]

Wade,

To refresh your memory, I'm reposting something I wrote a few days ago:

Maybe this will help. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross identified 5 stages of grief in her 1969 book On Death and Dying.

The stages are:

1. Denial - The "This can't be real" stage.: "This is not happening to me." "There must be a mistake"
2. Anger - The "Why me?" stage.: "How dare you do this to me?!" (either referring to God, the late person, or themselves)
3. Bargaining - The "If I do this, you’ll do that" stage.: "Just let me live to see my son graduate."
4. Depression - The "Defeated" stage.: "I can't bear to face going through this, putting my family through this."
5. Acceptance - The "This is going to happen" stage.: "I'm ready, I don't want to struggle anymore."

Kübler-Ross originally applied these stages to any form of catastrophic personal loss, such as the death of a loved one, or even divorce. She also claimed these steps do not necessarily come in order, nor are they all experienced by all patients, though she stated a person will always experience at least two.

It's pretty close to what I went through.

Stage 1: 2 years on FAIR trying to convince myself that the church really was true. (2003-2005)
Stage 2: Several months of angry posts on RfM. (2005)
Stage 3: Taking President Hinckley's Book of Mormon challenge in an effort to regain a testimony. (2005)
Stage 4: Finally giving up and nearly killing myself. (2005)
Stage 5: Becoming comfortable with where I am, warts and all. (2006)

[_Yoda]

Runtu---

Wade's "advice" on how to alleviate tension in your marriage should be interesting, considering that he admits he's never been married, and is not a professional counselor, or even in professional training.

Wade---You still have not addressed my question. What is your solution?

Obviously, venting is not the answer. I think you're picking a strawman argument. No one here has stated that venting is the "cure-all" or an ultimate recovery solution. It's only a beginning...a means of identifying the issues.

Healing involves moving forward. If you are honestly willing to address your thoughts on different ways to move forward, I think that people would be willing to listen. I know I would. But so far, all you have done is wagged your finger at people and said that "venting is bad".

Personally, I don't necessarily think that venting is bad if it is used a place to start in the recovery process.

Do you want to argue the negative affects of venting, or do you want to share ideas about how to move from venting, or identifying the problem, to the next level?

[cacheman]

Runtu---

Wade's "advice" on how to alleviate tension in your marriage should be interesting, considering that he admits he's never been married, and is not a professional counselor, or even in professional training.

Wade---You still have not addressed my question. What is your solution?

Obviously, venting is not the answer. I think you're picking a strawman argument. No one here has stated that venting is the "cure-all" or an ultimate recovery solution. It's only a beginning...a means of identifying the issues.

Healing involves moving forward. If you are honestly willing to address your thoughts on different ways to move forward, I think that people would be willing to listen. I know I would. But so far, all you have done is wagged your finger at people and said that "venting is bad".

Personally, I don't necessarily think that venting is bad if it is used a place to start in the recovery process.

Do you want to argue the negative affects of venting, or do you want to share ideas about how to move from venting, or identifying the problem, to the next level?

Maybe I misunderstood Wade. I thought the original point of the thread was that venting was unhealthy, at least unstructured and "bigoted" venting. Then it morphed into whether I or any other exmormons had a right to grieve over the loss of our faith. I responded that venting is part of the normal grieving process, and it WAS for me. Now Wade seems to be of the opinion that I need to be healed of my current venting and bigotry. And when I repeated what I had earlier said about the venting being in the past, he told me I was changing my mind because he had called my hand. What a bizarre turn of events.

As for cognitive therapy, that's exactly what kind of therapy I did last year after I bottomed out on depression. According to my therapist, I've been dealing with depression since my early teens. The combination of antidepressants and cognitive therapy has really been good for me. It worked wonders. I feel better and am happier than I've ever been.

But I'm all for healing, so let's get on with it, Wade.

[_wenglund]

Then, start directly answering my questions rather than evading them with some feigned "cruelty" excuse.

If you really want to help me, it's probably best not to keep insisting that my genuine reaction was "feigned" and an "excuse" designed to evade your questions. That's kind of counterproductive to gaining trust, Wade.

You misunderstand me yet again. I am not talking about you being WRONG about the verity of the Church. It is not your disbelief in the Church that I have a problem with. It is your months of "venting" and "grieving" that is at issue. In other words, it is not that you disbelieve, but how you have reacted to that disbelief. Understood?

Why are we talking about past events, Wade? So, maybe I handled things badly during the months of grieving; you may well be right. To paraphrase President Hinckley: "It's in the past. It's behind me." I'm not grieving, and I'm not venting. If you think it's productive to rehash what I did last year, by all means, go for it.

I am not in a position to do much about your disbelief, but I think there is a way to effectively diminish, if not evaporate the tension in your marriage, and become your daughter's "real dad" once again.

Things have improved vastly on both accounts, thank you.

So what questions did you have in mind to help me heal?

First, you plead for help because of your marriage and your daughter, and now you make it sound as though everything is hunky-dorey. Which is it?

Second, I am all for leaving the past in the past--as long as that is what really is happening, and as long as the past doesn't become your future or negatively affect your future. If you correctly understood how and why your "venting" at RFM went "badly", so that you can prevent it from happening again, and have taken ownership for your part in the "badness" and have attempted to make genuine restitution, then the past can remain in the past, and you can move forward.

But, if you have moved on, then why are you still here? Why are you and I at odds?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Wade,

To refresh your memory, I'm reposting something I wrote a few days ago:

Maybe this will help. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross identified 5 stages of grief in her 1969 book On Death and Dying.

The stages are:

1. Denial - The "This can't be real" stage.: "This is not happening to me." "There must be a mistake"
2. Anger - The "Why me?" stage.: "How dare you do this to me?!" (either referring to God, the late person, or themselves)
3. Bargaining - The "If I do this, you’ll do that" stage.: "Just let me live to see my son graduate."
4. Depression - The "Defeated" stage.: "I can't bear to face going through this, putting my family through this."
5. Acceptance - The "This is going to happen" stage.: "I'm ready, I don't want to struggle anymore."

Kübler-Ross originally applied these stages to any form of catastrophic personal loss, such as the death of a loved one, or even divorce. She also claimed these steps do not necessarily come in order, nor are they all experienced by all patients, though she stated a person will always experience at least two.

It's pretty close to what I went through.

Stage 1: 2 years on FAIR trying to convince myself that the church really was true. (2003-2005)
Stage 2: Several months of angry posts on RfM. (2005)
Stage 3: Taking President Hinckley's Book of Mormon challenge in an effort to regain a testimony. (2005)
Stage 4: Finally giving up and nearly killing myself. (2005)
Stage 5: Becoming comfortable with where I am, warts and all. (2006)

What is to prevent you from repeating the past by experiencing false grief and mis-directing your venting in the future?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

You each have unwittingly condoned the kind of dysfunctional "venting" that occurs at RFM.

Good grief, Wade. You are the most infuriating person to try to carry on a conversation with because you incessantly talk past the other person. If you read my full statements carefully, you will find that I (surprise, surprise) agree with you that wallowing in a state of dysfunctional venting is unhealthy. Certainly, there are people on RfM who do that...but not all of them.

Runtu's stages of grief that he presented are professional, documented stages used in most forms of counseling.

You mentioned that your solution to everyone's problems is "love". OK.....I agree here. Love is the ultimate answer to healing. But let's talk about how we get there. When people are depressed or angry, many times they don't feel love from others. They feel alone. Sometimes, it's theraputic to talk to someone else who is going through some of the same things you are. It helps build your support system.

The trick is to not be brought down my negativity and wallow in self-pity. There is a balance. You eventually have to take the bull by the horns and move forward with your life.

Do you have some positive, helpful suggestions in how to do that? That would be an interesting discussion...much more interesting than you calling people bigots for venting their frustrations. What insights can you give as to how they should move from this step of identification and frustration to a more positive level?

[_Runtu]

First, you plead for help because of your marriage and your daughter, and now you make it sound as though everything is hunky-dorey. Which is it?

No, things are not hunky dory, Wade. We have our problems, but they are improving. And the plea was slightly sarcastic. I'm sorry for that bit of snarkiness.

Second, I am all for leaving the past in the past--as long as that is what really is happening, and as long as the past doesn't become your future or negatively affect your future. If you correctly understood how and why your "venting" at RFM went "badly", so that you can prevent it from happening again, and have taken ownership for your part in the "badness" and have attempted to make genuine restitution, then the past can remain in the past, and you can move forward.

I don't think it went particularly badly. As I said, I gauge successful venting by the extent to which you can move on from it. Since I no longer feel the need to vent or grieve, I would say it went quite well. Your point, and the one at which we were at odds, seemed to be that it was of necessity a bad thing that I went to RfM and vented for months. I said before that I would much rather have vented there than at home. My therapist said he felt unequipped to deal with my exit from Mormonism, and he asked if I had found any support groups. I mentioned RfM, and we talked about what I did there, and he seemed to think it was a good thing for me.

But, if you have moved on, then why are you still here? Why are you and I at odds?

Why am I here? For one, I was invited here. Also, as I explained in another thread (oddly enough entitled "why are we here?"), I like talking about Mormonism. I find it fascinating. It's part of who I am, and I find it interesting.

Why are we at odds? I suspect it's more a personality clash than anything else. I will readily admit that when I saw your name, I thought, Oh, no, not him. I unfortunately carried a lot of past history into our conversation, which you saw as defensiveness. I apologize for that, Wade, but seeing your name made my guard go up.

I'm sure you're a nice enough person, but our conversation has been marked by a lot of verbal jabs and questioned motives, and I'm not so sure it's been a healthy exchange for either of us. So far, I've come away from the conversation more convinced that I had good reason to be on guard, and you clearly are convinced that I have serious emotional problems. We're not exactly following Section 50, are we?

Thanks,

John

[_wenglund]

Runtu---

Wade's "advice" on how to alleviate tension in your marriage should be interesting, considering that he admits he's never been married, and is not a professional counselor, or even in professional training.

Wade---You still have not addressed my question. What is your solution?

Obviously, venting is not the answer. I think you're picking a strawman argument. No one here has stated that venting is the "cure-all" or an ultimate recovery solution. It's only a beginning...a means of identifying the issues.

Healing involves moving forward. If you are honestly willing to address your thoughts on different ways to move forward, I think that people would be willing to listen. I know I would. But so far, all you have done is wagged your finger at people and said that "venting is bad".

Personally, I don't necessarily think that venting is bad if it is used a place to start in the recovery process.

Do you want to argue the negative affects of venting, or do you want to share ideas about how to move from venting, or identifying the problem, to the next level?

Your assuming that calling something "venting" and "grieving" makes it so. Your assuming that there is a need for "recovery". The truth is, while these fine folks may believe they have good cause to "vent" and "grieve" and "recover", they really don't. That perception is born of cognitive distortions, and it is a delusional way of masking the real cause of their angst. You are unwittingly enabling their delusion by also assuming it is real and valid. They aren't going to address the real cause of their angst and dysfunction by "venting" and "grieving". In fact, they may simply become further deluded.

Now, I understand that you and truth dancer are attempting to be supportive, and you just want the best. That desire is to be admired. Unfortunately, from my perspective, you are unwittingly doing just the opposite.

And, I am aware of truth dancer's professional back ground. I don't personally put much stock in new age therapy. I prefer scientifically proven methods of therapy, like cognitive behavioral therapy.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

Your assuming that calling something "venting" and "grieving" makes it so. Your assuming that there is a need for "recovery". The truth is, while these fine folks may believe they have good cause to "vent" and "grieve" and "recover", they really don't. That perception is born of cognitive distortions, and it is a delusional way of masking the real cause of their angst. You are unwittingly enabling their delusion by also assuming it is real and valid. They aren't going to address the real cause of their angst and dysfunction by "venting" and "grieving". In fact, they may simply become further deluded.

Now, I understand that you and truth dancer are attempting to be supportive, and you just want the best. That desire is to be admired. Unfortunately, from my perspective, you are unwittingly doing just the opposite.

And, I am aware of truth dancer's professional back ground. I don't personally put much stock in new age therapy. I prefer scientifically proven methods of therapy, like cognitive behavioral therapy.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What's ironic is that my therapist is the one who described my exit from Mormonism as a grieving process. He was the one who introduced me to the 5 stages, and he helped me through it. So, to whom do I give more credence? A neutral observer who is a professional counselor, or some guy with a vested interest in never admitting that there is any fault in "the gospel of love"?

[_Yoda]

Your assuming that calling something "venting" and "grieving" makes it so. Your assuming that there is a need for "recovery". The truth is, while these fine folks may believe they have good cause to "vent" and "grieve" and "recover", they really don't. That perception is born of cognitive distortions, and it is a delusional way of masking the real cause of their angst. You are unwittingly enabling their delusion by also assuming it is real and valid. They aren't going to address the real cause of their angst and dysfunction by "venting" and "grieving". In fact, they may simply become further deluded.

Now, I understand that you and truth dancer are attempting to be supportive, and you just want the best. That desire is to be admired. Unfortunately, from my perspective, you are unwittingly doing just the opposite.

And, I am aware of truth dancer's professional back ground. I don't personally put much stock in new age therapy. I prefer scientifically proven methods of therapy, like cognitive behavioral therapy.

You have to be the most pompous individual I have ever carried on a conversation with. What gives you the right to discount what is going on in someone else's life? Why must you judge people and make blanket statements about whether or not what they are going through is valid or not? That would be like me saying that you must not be a very good practicing Mormon because you are, admittedly, 51 years old and never married. You didn't obey God's law and get married. It doesn't matter that there are circumstances in your life surrounding this that make a difference. It's only the end result that matters.

Do you see how condescending and rediculous this sounds, Wade?

Also...Runtu listed documented stages of grief which are utilized in cognitive behavioral therapy.

Please share with us your scientific methods that are going to work for everyone here, no matter what their circumstance.