? for Ray A

[_beastie]

People aren't posting on RFM to make the church change. They're posting to try and process the various feelings and consequences of losing faith in the LDS church.

This has been pointed out numerous times, and it seems to be one of those things few believers are willing to "hear". A more apt analogy is to a divorce. There are divorce support boards on the internet, and believe me, those people rant and rave and say some really ugly things about their ex-spouses. As time goes on and they pick up the pieces of their lives, and try to figure out a way to work with their ex-spouse for the kids' sake, they mellow out a bit and accept more responsibility themselves. Believers like DCP who go out of their way to lurk on RFM are like an ex-spouse who sneaks into his/her ex-spouses' support group/board and read all the angry, ugly things being said about them. Any person who expects a divorce to be clean, painless and NOT ugly is a naïve fool. Any believer who expects ex-believers should be able to just walk away without a second thought, without anger, without ugly thoughts, is a naïve fool. It's all part of the painful process of separating from a formerly intimate relationship.

As Gaz used to wisely say in the face of FAIR's constant upset over what the people at RFM were saying, it's nice to know that some pain in this world is actually deserved. If you are dumb enough to go lurk on your ex-spouse's support group, you're going to hear some ugly things said about you. Then you can get mad and inflate your own anger against your ex-spouse, and feel self-righteous about it to boot... ignoring all the ugly things YOU have said about your ex-spouse, too.

It's ironic, Ray, that you recognize the church isn't going to change due to angry attacks made by exmormons, yet you apparently believe RFM should change based on angry attacks made by believers.

[_Mister Scratch]

It is still there, with Itchy threating "I'll be back." My guess is that the powers-that-be at FAIR/MAD realized that they were in a tenuous legal position on account of the fact that they had leaked what was supposed to be (by their own contractual suggestion) very private information.

And that's why this whole thing gets nasty. Your "entertainment" blog started it all.

See, Ray? You are making this "you started it" argument, which is very ineffective. Stan Barker's "Critics Corner" blog at SHIELDS predates my blog by years. Do you have an issue with that? Many of DCP's cheapshots and "entertainment" articles predate my blog by a good long time. Do you have an issue with those?

You could have offered all the criticisms of Mormonism you wanted without becoming personal. Remember, this is your revenge Scratch, no more, no less, for what you call being unfairly being kicked off FAIR.

No---it is a way to continue to engage FAIR/MAD. It is also a lot of fun. What about the blog do you see as being "personal", by the way? Can you offer specific examples? (I know that's a really hard thing for you to do, but can you? Just this one time?)

I have offered many criticisms of Steve Benson and Tal Bachmann, but I've not started a blog to try to discredit them.

My goal isn't to "discredit."

I ceased to engage Tal after a while, because I had my say. You relentlessly pursue Mormons, and in particular DCP and Juliann. Do you have any line, anywhere in the sand? Would you like to take a bet? Stop your revenge campaign and I bet it all dies down.

You bet what "all dies down"? What is it that you want exactly, Ray? You have never been clear on this. Do you want me to stop posting? Do you want me to get rid of the blog? What? Be clear, man.

Don't keep doing your posts which start with "the good professor P" and then launch into a tirade against him.

Sure. As soon he lets of his "divine mandate" to ridicule and attack and caricature the folks at RfM. And as soon as he apologizes for making the false accusation against me. Once more: I will cease posting if he sincerely apologizes and wants me gone. I'll stand by my word.

The same could apply to RFM, who in the name of "recovery" launch bitter attacks against the Church. I would also be willing to bet you that the "the good Professor P" would have nothing to say about you if you left him alone.

I don't care whether he says anything about me or not. In fact, I am kind of flattered by the attention.

If Mormonism has adopted a liberal and pluralistic approach to life, please let me know, Ray, and I will lower my critical standards of it.

So you want to turn around the ship Zion. And you're going to keep attacking Mormons until they change. Eventually, I will leave you alone too - to your grand delusion.

Your original point is a "you started it" sort of argument, and, as I pointed out above, Mormonism predates us all.

And this is where everyone can clearly see the anti-Mormon in you. I think you'd prefer if Joseph Smith claimed nothing. I think you'd prefer if Joseph Smith was just a liberal, and wasn't out spoken, and had not given such "TBM" revelations, and in particular had not given such clear definitions in the revelations. Yes, indeed, it offends us all, it offends us because either we can't live it, or don't want to live it, and we want to see those who DO live it brought down to our level. Right? Hence your campaign to change the Church - so YOU can feel comfortable in it. It reminds me of the lady whose son was marching, quite contrary to all the others, and she remarked "everyone is out of step except my son".

That's a pretty naïve assertion, Ray. The Mormonism of Joseph Smith's day was quite different from what it is today.

[_Bond...James Bond]

The thing about RFM is that they are going about the whole recovery process the wrong way.

Who are you to say how they recover? What's it to you if they feel the need to say whatever about the Church?

Can you imagine Amnesty International setting up a website like RFM? Or for that matter, Alcoholics Anonymous? If you want to deal with problems, you don't antagonise, you dialogue.

It's rather obvious that many RfMers don't want dialogue. They want to vent against the church, religion, and culture that has significantly influenced their life.

There are many moderate voices expressing opinions. One of the founders of Dialogue was a TBM - Eugene England (he was TBM in his basic Mormon beliefs, such as the Restoration, etc). He got criticism from both sides, and I am sure had he lived to see all this and been in a healthy frame of mind, he would have had some very significant and balanced viewpoints to contribute. He once criticised both FARMS and Signature. He was also a fully practising Mormon who criticised the Church Educational System for not speaking out more about the treatement of blacks, and not clearly removing the stigmas attached to blacks, which left many young Mormons still believing the old teachings. And he did not demonise the Church in the process.

Again, many of the RfMers don't want dialogue or to go about their exit from Mormonism in anything resembling a moderate way. It's obvious that they don't just dislike the Church....the hate/loathe the Church with a white-hot burning passion. Words probably don't adequately describe the hate that some people feel for the Church. Few things about the Church are moderate....why should leaving it be any different?

What you are seeing on RFM is not dialogue. He also had a respectful conversation with Joseph Fielding Smith about the teachings about blacks, and Fielding Smith made a concession to him he would never in a million years have made to an anti-Mormon. See his book Dialogues With Myself. Yes, some change in ideas may come, without compromising the Church, but it ain't going to come from RFM, nor from Scratch's blog. It's not going to come from shouting "fraud". It's not going to come through animosity to the Church, nor mockery of the Church, nor agendas to change the Church's basic teachings.

They don't want to understand or dialogue about the Church. They want to vent.

I think it's obvious that people who decry RfM want people to exit Mormonism in a polite quiet way. The reality is....the people aren't going to be polite. They're going to swear, they're going to piss and moan and say terrible things. They're pissed off....let them be pissed off.

[_Ray A]

Again, many of the RfMers don't want dialogue or to go about their exit from Mormonism in anything resembling a moderate way. It's OBVIOUS that they don't just dislike the Church....the hate/loathe the Church with a white-hot burning passion. Words probably don't adequately describe the hate that some people feel for the Church. Few things about the Church are moderate....why should leaving it be any different? (My emphasis and capitalisation)

Thank you for verifying my point. I have said ad nauseam that RFM is a HATE site. You just confirmed it. The exmos here have denied until the cows come home that it's an anti-Mormon hate site, and you have just proved them wrong. They DENIED that exmos are filled with hate, they say they are "hurting". Hurting my ass. They are vindictive and hateful like Scratch.

See, Bond, what you just said confirms what I've been saying for five years!. I'm going to quote you on this forever more. I already quoted an RFM poster, himself, who admitted that it was a hate site. Yet all of the pathetic apologists for RFM, Beastie being NUMBER ONE, have constantly denied it's a hate site. Here is what they call it: A "recovery site". LOL.

I rest assured that any decent, fair-minded human being can see RFM for what it is - a pig sty of anti-Mormon hatred and weak people who have NO BALLS to accept responsibility for their lives and are looking for scapegoats. That site is nothing but an excuse for sowing hate.

So let's remember, folks, to Bond it's OBVIOUS that exmos on RFM hate/loathe the church with a "burning passion". I wonder who on earth ever recovered from anything with burning, passionate hatred.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Thank you for verifying my point. I have said ad nauseam that RFM is a HATE site. You just confirmed it. The exmos here have denied until the cows come home that it's an anti-Mormon hate site, and you have just proved them wrong. They DENIED that exmos are filled with hate, they say they are "hurting". Hurting my ass. They are vindictive and hateful like Scratch.

Actually I said many RfMers. I don't think all or most are filled with hate. And if they are filled with hate for the church...it's still their right to be mad.

See, Bond, what you just said confirms what I've been saying for five years!. I'm going to quote you on this forever more. I already quoted an RFM poster, himself, who admitted that it was a hate site. Yet all of the pathetic apologists for RFM, Beastie being NUMBER ONE, have constantly denied it's a hate site. Here is what they call it: A "recovery site". LOL.

Yeah! I'm getting quoted by someone who has been on this subject for five years! Shouldn't you reconsider your harping if you've been a subject for five years?

So people can't have hate and still be recovering? Are people supposed to only feel one emotion when they're recovering? If so: what emotion should that be?

I rest assured that any decent, fair-minded human being can see RFM for what it is - a pig sty of anti-Mormon hatred and weak people who have NO BALLS to accept responsibility for their lives and are looking for scapegoats. That site is nothing but an excuse for sowing hate.

I think most decent fair-minded people will see RFM for what it is....a lot of people trying to figure out how in the heck they swallowed Mormonism.

So let's remember, folks, to Bond it's OBVIOUS that exmos on RFM hate/loathe the church with a "burning passion". I wonder who on earth ever recovered from anything with burning, passionate hatred.

Of course they hate the church....in many cases it's ruined their lives. Duh!

As I said before...complete recovery may never be possible for some people (due to the family ties that may never be cut..and some people will only recover when their extended families are out of the church).

[_Jersey Girl]

Ray:

Thank you for verifying my point. I have said ad nauseam that RFM is a HATE site. You just confirmed it. The exmos here have denied until the cows come home that it's an anti-Mormon hate site, and you have just proved them wrong. They DENIED that exmos are filled with hate, they say they are "hurting". Hurting my ass. They are vindictive and hateful like Scratch.

Ray, you would do well to study the psychological manifestation of hurt and what emotions it produces in people. How about the grief process? Any therapists on the board willing to address this?

See, Bond, what you just said confirms what I've been saying for five years!. I'm going to quote you on this forever more. I already quoted an RFM poster, himself, who admitted that it was a hate site. Yet all of the pathetic apologists for RFM, Beastie being NUMBER ONE, have constantly denied it's a hate site. Here is what they call it: A "recovery site". LOL.

Ray? Have you seen all of the same posters recurring for 5 years or is there a turnover of active posters on that board? I've been as temperate as I could be here but honestly, Ray, your reasoning here that because you've stated for 5 (freaking) years that RFM is a hate site, that the ex mos have stated that the people are hurting you think the two are mutually exclusive (idiot) and that no one who has posted on RFM for 5 (freaking) years hasn't recovered is nonsensical b***s***.

I rest assured that any decent, fair-minded human being can see RFM for what it is - a pig sty of anti-Mormon hatred and weak people who have NO BALLS to accept responsibility for their lives and are looking for scapegoats. That site is nothing but an excuse for sowing hate.

B***s***, Ray. A significant portion of the posts that I've read on RFM are made by those who have summoned the courage to question their previously held beliefs, responses of support and compassion from those who are further along in the process and yes, there are certainly over the top vitriolic spewing posts there. Ray, if it doesn't take "balls" to question the church, research the issues, come to terms with the issues and choose to either keep it to oneself or publicly disclose it to family members (knowing that all close relationships are at risk) and actually prepare and forward an exit letter...I don't know what the hell does!

So let's remember, folks, to Bond it's OBVIOUS that exmos on RFM hate/loathe the church with a "burning passion". I wonder who on earth ever recovered from anything with burning, passionate hatred.

Again you stupid jackass (Jersey Girl openly resorts to name calling, this won't end up anywhere good, I promise) a vast majority of the people posting on RFM...are both hurting and angry (and all you focus on is your ass and their "balls) Study the effing grief process you compartmentalized blockhead.

[_Jersey Girl]

Ray,

Here is a link and excerpt for the Kubler Ross Model, 5 stages of grief.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

"The stages are:

1. Denial - The initial stage.: "It can't be happening."
2. Anger .: "How dare you do this to me?!" (either referring to God, the deceased, or oneself)
3. Bargaining .: "Just let me live to see my son graduate."
4. Depression .: "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"
5. Acceptance .: "I know my son will be in a better place""

The above is demonstrative of grief associated with death as loss. The exact same model is used for people who suffer other types of significant loss in their lives. Read the article and educate your sorry self.

[_Nightingale]

Two things:

1. Our own perspective factors heavily into the conclusions we reach.

2. Generalizations are bound to be inaccurate much of the time.


Obviously if we consider the Book of Mormon sacred it is going to offend our sensibilities if we read someone mocking it.

The trick there, though, is to stop and question whether they really are "mocking" or whether our sensitivity metre is ratcheted up too high.

Early on in my reading of RfM someone wrote that while on their mission two other missionaries who were speaking in a church class spit on a picture of Jesus. I was outraged, offended and considered this proof positive that the Mormon Church is not a Christian institution if one of its missionaries could be so crass as to do such a thing, for any reason. My perspective has since widened a bit. Who knows what they thought they were "teaching" or what point they were trying to make? Who knows if the poster recounting the story remembered or wrote all the details? One act by a member of any institution does not blacken the entire institution (unless perhaps if it is the top person and often not even then). What matters to me is not what one missionary, one member or even one leader of the Mormon Church does but rather, what the body of leaders does and says on a consistent basis. That is why to me, one person saying or doing anything doesn't prove or disprove much.

Undoubtedly, RfM is not "Mormon-friendly". It makes no secret of that. It should not come as a surprise to readers. But I don't see it as a bastion of hate either. Otherwise, I certainly wouldn't be there. I think the over the top posts are quite few and far between when you consider the number of posts on the board. It is highly inaccurate to take one "venting" tirade and use it to describe the whole board.

I never liked the "recovery" part of its name, I must admit. I think it can give a wrong impression about what the board is about. But I have come to see that the "recovery" part is not a promise by the board but perhaps a description of who visits there, describing the phase they are in with their questioning and decision-making about Mormonism. Admin and posters there certainly do not hold it out as a therapy place. Rather, the most frequent advice given is to find in real life help, including therapy if needed.

RfM is not an entity unto itself that is or isn't this or that. It's just a discussion board where people drop in and out. To characterize it as a fomenting pit of seething hatred by the same miscreants on a continual long term basis is very misleading. People come and go in revolving door fashion. That is, indeed, the most constant thing about the board. Some of the stories on the bio board there are among the most poignant I have ever read anywhere. No-one can say that because they feel the Mormon Church is benign and their experience with it was beneficial to them that someone else's experience is invalid. For some people what feels like security to others feels claustrophobic. While some people feel they were given opportunities to grow and develop talents, others feel they were stifled. What could be one of Mormonism's greatest strengths, its apparent devotion to "free agency", too often falls far short of its promise in that many parents and church leaders impose conformity that chokes the creativity and optimism out of the conformee. It's not a crime for a person to feel out of place and to stretch their wings looking for a more favourable place to settle but too often, Mormons make it so.

Because of the number and diversity of posters and the vast array of subject matter discussed, it is inaccurate to say that RfM is this or that en bloc. If it were a "hate site", Admin would have a policy of hating and the majority of posters would undoubtedly continually express "hatred". I don't see that and never have.

How is it possible that we can look at the same site and see it in such a different way? It must have to do with our own preconceptions, beliefs and perspective. I don't see it as ALL one thing. It's a board with a thousand or ten thousand different posts on it. I see the posts as individual, not one great seething mass. If one person says they hate Mormonism (few and far between that I have seen) that does not colour the entire board for me. In fact, the majority of postings come across to me as very moderate.

What could be misunderstood by the casual visitor or the offended saint is that Eric, the board owner, has merely provided a place for people to make comments about their experiences, thoughts and feelings related to Mormonism. That does not mean he believes it all or agrees with it all or that there is one united effort to push a certain viewpoint.

Just because Bond (or anyone) says it is hate or it isn't hate that doesn't constitute "proof" one way or the other. At best, it is one person's perspective about what they have seen there and how they interpret it. Neither does what I say mean it is not a hate site or whatever other epithet people wish to hurl at it. What I say is just my experience there and my own perception of it.

I agree with the comments that people are hurting. Not to see that is to display the same lack of compassion that dismays me within Mormonism. Another point is that the church actively seeks out leavetakers even after they have resigned so it bears some of the responsibility for some of the clashes with former members. Also, it goes almost without saying that if one's entire family for generations has been in Mormonism it's not as simple as just walking away.

On a quick and casual perusal of RfM this afternoon, I saw the following posts that are a good cross-section of what gets posted there, showing the hurt that people suffer, the difficulty in leaving, the diverse subject matter and the interesting information that is present on a daily basis. This is one of the reasons I like to read it and have admiration and compassion for so many of the people who stop by there. For the record, today I looked through the first four pages and did not find a "hate" post among them. Sure, there is criticism of Mormonism. Maybe those who see "hate" are just hypersensitive to any comment that isn't 100% pro? I have felt that way myself sometimes about things that are significant to me that other people disregard or laugh at. But often it is up to us to adjust and not expect the world to conform to our taste. I have done that in some ways and it has actually been an improvement.


Post #1: Ouch

Last night I attended my children's elementary school Open House. Everything was fine until my daughter showed me one of her class assignments on the wall....drawing a picture of her family. Guess who was missing? Me. I tried not to react but it hurt.

I've been as much an involved father as is possible during a divorce. I take them out for individual dates. I have them every other weekend and during the week I take them out for dinner. The weekend before I had gone overboard celebrating her birthday.

I'm leaving tomorrow to travel 6 hours to attend my daughter's baptism. My partner and his sons are coming too.

While at said event I will see TBM relatives and ex-in-laws who have shown zero interest in ever looking me in the eye. According to them, I found fault with the church so that I could leave it and live in decadent homosexual sin. My being there will, needless to say, irritate them. My partner's presence will no doubt push them over the edge.

I know it's not a competition between my ex and I, but I have this gut feeling she's winning. She's indoctrinating them in the cult and even getting them to consider me not family.


Post #2: Dawkins

I love his writing. He's gifted and focused on more than just snipes at his perceived enemy. In my opinion, he tries to use well thought-out examples to illustrate his points.

That's what I love about Sagan and Gould: they can make a scientific fact understandable to even someone as thick as me.

But where I think Gould is too conciliatory in "Rock of Ages", I think Dawkins is too adamant that Religion, Inc. is the embodiment of all evil.

Perhaps he engages in hyperbole to make a point, but my experience has been that the majority of believers are wonderful people (Latter-Day Saints included) and seeking, like all of us, to make their ways through a challenging, uncertain world.

My biggest complaint about religion (and I know you've all heard it before) and Mormonism specifically, is the selling, indoctrination and downright dishonesty of the theology. I can accept that people are good and that many good people are religious. I wish them happiness in their journey.

But if they are going to put their beliefs, especially the more questionable ones like salvation through Jeezus, out there in the public arena, then they need to accept the reality that it is going to be attacked.
I have a don't ask/don't tell policy for religion: if you keep your faith sacred and to yourself, I won't mock it in your face.

Otherwise, Dawkins works are good food for thought and, for me at least, quite fun to read.


Post #3: Easter Tribute from an Agnostic

Interesting perspective. As an agnostic myself, I often tire of the hostility towards religion by atheists, agnostics and the "cultural elite" as the writer describes them:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andr ... hristians/

I agree with most of what he says.


Response to Post #3:

I’ve got to tell you that I'm fully cognizant of my own failing as a Christian when I mock Mormons and mormonism---and although I justify it because I really, really do believe it's a great evil that needs to be revealed for what it is and I have a personal stake in it because it has caused appreciable harm to the people I love, it's still probably not the best I can be. I remind myself that it's the belief and not the people--except the hypocrites who spread the lies and judge non-believers are really hard to "respect". Being Christian is NOT easy---so I have particular reason to appreciate the grace this most holy day represents.


Another Response to Post #3:

I've also never had ONE Christian be hostile towards me when I respectfully tell them of my lack of belief and let them know I'm not interested.

I think the hostility is bred on both sides when one side gets "In the face" of the other side.

Christians demanding accommodation from atheists and atheists demanding accommodation from Christians.

Muslims demanding accommodation from Christians and Christians demanding accommodations from Muslims.


Another Response to Post #3:

It’s entirely possible to disagree passionately about something and to debate it and still like or love your opponent at the end of the day and even maybe go out drinking and have a great time with them. The secret is so very simple. The debate remains on the idea, not the speaker.


Post #4: Christianity's most sacred day

At our Sunday meeting we Mo's will get to enjoy an extra pot of flowers on the stand and 2 or 3 involuntary speakers who were told to mix the resurrection into their talk this week.

The upshot will be that Christ's sacrifice obligates everyone to be loyal followers of the LDS church and obey all it's preferred commandments.

In other words, the same as every other sacrament meeting, but with an extra pot of lilies!

Happy Easter Everyone!


Post #5: The LDS religion is an amateur religion

This morning, after I entered my office building and greeted a co-worker, that co-worker asked me if my church was having sunrise services. I told her no and she was a little surprised. It made me think how the lay ministry at the local level of Mormonism makes the church an amateur religion. Other churches do all sorts of special things and not just on special ocassions because they pay their ministers. The music, for example, can be top notch because music ministers go to school to train for what they do and they are paid to do it. That makes their religions professional. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a believer, per se. For want of a better label, I am agnostic. However, I do appreciate good religious music and even good religious ritual. This was merely an interesting comparison to me.


Post #6: They Found Me

I recently moved to a new city over 1,000 miles away. I live in a small apartment by myself while my wife and children finish school and work obligations and will then join me in June. I live a very quiet life- work, apartment, Internet, and X-box. I am living on a very small budget because we have two households right now. I have become a microwave cooking expert.

Tonight while I was busy preparing my 20th Hungry Man meal in a row, I received a knock at the door. I was expecting the maintenance people to stop by and fix a few things but to my surprise when I opened the door stood two smiling faces with the requisite white shirts, conservative ties, and black name tags. The shorter of the two extended his hand and said, "Brother XXX?"
I said, "Who?" He said, "Aren't you Brother XXX? We have your record right here," holding up his notebook.

First of all, my family and I resigned from the Morg three years ago, only one person besides my wife knows of my current address, and I have had no contact with anyone from the Morg since we resigned.


Post #7: Letting my soul heal at its own pace

Our bodies already know how to best heal a cut or a scrape so that infection is less like to occur and scarring is minimized. The same with our souls - they know how to best heal, we just have to get out of their way and let them.

I can't recommend any books or authors because various authors will, at various times in your recovery and beyond, seem to speak right to your heart. They will have the wisdom your conscious mind needs to heart to continue recovering. Then another author will speak to you, with more healing words, and so on.

Posting here, talking to other people in recovery has also helped me a lot by helping me put words to feelings. Talking to understand in real life friends and family. Only letting people who respect me get close to my heart.

Don't hesitate to get into therapy if things get too hard to manage on your own.



Some of the current subject lines on the front page:

*I am reading a very interesting book called Living with Darwin
*10 Commandments Movie on ABC tonight--One of my favorite fables
*Why did the Mormons not settle in indiana in the 1800s
*Temple Killed My Faith
*Intelligent design or Scientific Approach?
*As an enlightened (post-magical) thinker do you think there's any such thing as Good and Evil?
*What are the most profound changes that exmoism has brought to your life?
*Has any of the Prophets met with the Pope?
*What book (or other reference) had the greatest influence upon changing your mind about believing Mormonism's unsupported claims?
*divorce stats: temple v. civil marriage
*What made you question?
*The History of Easter - excerpts


I can't understand how readers don't see the wit, wisdom, support, understanding and good will that abounds in many of the posts. Not to see the hurt that so many struggle to overcome is mystifying to me. Some people need compassion. What they get is censure. That is one of the major problems with Mormonism and exactly why RfM is so active.

Looking at these sub lines and content which are representative of the majority of posts, where is the fomenting pit I wonder?

[_Jersey Girl]

Here's a sample of how the stages of grief could apply to a Mormon who is going through the process of recovery, based on posts I've seen and personal experiences related to me:


1. Denial - The initial stage.: That couldn't be true. The anti's have to be wrong. If it were true, someone would have told me.


2. Anger .: It's TRUE! Why didn't anyone bother to tell me this? I've never once heard anyone talk about this in church! I've given so much of my
time and money to TSCC!!!

3. Bargaining .: Maybe I should just keep it to myself. I can just go to church and never tell anyone. I can't tell my wife, she's ultra TBM and might leave me. If I reveal my true thoughts to my Bishop I will lose my TR, I won't be able to attend my daughter's wedding next month, I could lose my whole family. I'll just keep it to myself. No use making waves.

4. Depression .: I can't take this anymore. Whenever I go to church, I can't stand hearing the things they say. I can't fake it anymore, I feel like a hypocrite. I feel like I'm lying to my wife every day. I'm a pathetic liar and a fraud. I feel trapped.
.
5. Acceptance .: I know the church isn't true. I know that when I tell my family it could be risky. I know that when I tell my Bishop, I'll lose my TR and I won't be able to attend my daughter's wedding. I know that my marriage might end. I know that everyone is going to be disappointed in me. I gave my time and money to the church because I wanted to at the time. I'll have to think of it as a lesson learned. The church isn't true, but I have to be true to myself. I'm not going to live my life on someone else's terms.

[_Ray A]

Ray, you would do well to study the psychological manifestation of hurt and what emotions it produces in people. How about the grief process? Any therapists on the board willing to address this?

Study it, you say? I could have been the subject of such a study.