healing/recovery through venting?

[_marg]

Wade, wikipedia describes cognitive distortions essentially as faulty reasoning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion I'd like you to go to RFM and find a post which illustrates "cognitive distortion" on there.

by the way, I can see how you have cognitive distortion. I'm very serious. You seem to treat the entire board of RFM posters as if they are one poster. And you interpret criticisms of the church as anger. I think it likely you blow out of proportion individual posts, by interpreting them as having the same importance you place on them. But keep in mind that your interpretation of posts there is skewed by the importance and relevancy to your life that you place on them. The post to the poster may be quite insignificant in their daily lives.

Here is a list it gives:

List
Related links are suggested in parentheses.

All-or-nothing thinking - Thinking of things in absolute terms, like "always", "every" or "never". Few aspects of human behavior are so absolute. (See false dilemma.)

Overgeneralization - Taking isolated cases and using them to make wide generalizations. (See hasty generalization.)

Mental filter - Focusing exclusively on certain, usually negative or upsetting, aspects of something while ignoring the rest, like a tiny imperfection in a piece of clothing. (See misleading vividness.)

Disqualifying the positive - Continually "shooting down" positive experiences for arbitrary, ad hoc reasons. (See special pleading.)

Jumping to conclusions - Assuming something negative where there is no evidence to support it. Two specific subtypes are also identified:

Mind reading - Assuming the intentions of others.

Fortune telling - Predicting that things will turn out badly. (See slippery slope.)

Magnification and Minimization - Exaggerating negatives and understating positives. Often the positive characteristics of other people are exaggerated and negatives understated. There is one subtype of magnification:

Catastrophizing - Focusing on the worst possible outcome, however unlikely, or thinking that a situation is unbearable or impossible when it is really just uncomfortable.

Emotional reasoning - Making decisions and arguments based on how you feel rather than objective reality. (See appeal to consequences.)

Making should statements - Concentrating on what you think "should" or ought to be rather than the actual situation you are faced with, or having rigid rules which you think should always apply no matter what the circumstances are. (See wishful thinking.)

Labelling - Related to overgeneralization, explaining by naming. Rather than describing the specific behavior, you assign a label to someone or yourself that puts them in absolute and unalterable terms.

Personalization (or attribution) - Assuming you or others directly caused things when that may not have been the case. (See illusion of control.) When applied to others this is an example of blame.

[_Runtu]

You have to be the most pompous individual I have ever carried on a conversation with. What gives you the right to discount what is going on in someone else's life? Why must you judge people and make blanket statements about whether or not what they are going through is valid or not? That would be like me saying that you must not be a very good practicing Mormon because you are, admittedly, 51 years old and never married. You didn't obey God's law and get married. It doesn't matter that there are circumstances in your life surrounding this that make a difference. It's only the end result that matters.

Do you see how condescending and rediculous this sounds, Wade?

Also...Runtu listed documented stages of grief which are utilized in cognitive behavioral therapy.

Please share with us your scientific methods that are going to work for everyone here, no matter what their circumstance.

It is kind of strange for a virtual stranger to tell people that their feelings are invalid. Of course, it makes more sense when you realize that Wade belongs to an organization that accepts no valid reasons for having negative feelings about said organization.

[_wenglund]

First, you plead for help because of your marriage and your daughter, and now you make it sound as though everything is hunky-dorey. Which is it?

No, things are not hunky dory, Wade. We have our problems, but they are improving. And the plea was slightly sarcastic. I'm sorry for that bit of snarkiness.

Second, I am all for leaving the past in the past--as long as that is what really is happening, and as long as the past doesn't become your future or negatively affect your future. If you correctly understood how and why your "venting" at RFM went "badly", so that you can prevent it from happening again, and have taken ownership for your part in the "badness" and have attempted to make genuine restitution, then the past can remain in the past, and you can move forward.

I don't think it went particularly badly. As I said, I gauge successful venting by the extent to which you can move on from it. Since I no longer feel the need to vent or grieve, I would say it went quite well.

That might be true if your "venting" and "grief" were valid, and the real cause of your high emotional state. I have good reason to doubt that it was--I don't say this by way of insult or discounting, but by way of third-party diagnostics. And if my suspicions are correct, then while you may have calmed your need to vent and grieve, the real issue remains unaddressed.

Your point, and the one at which we were at odds, seemed to be that it was of necessity a bad thing that I went to RfM and vented for months. I said before that I would much rather have vented there than at home. My therapist said he felt unequipped to deal with my exit from Mormonism, and he asked if I had found any support groups. I mentioned RfM, and we talked about what I did there, and he seemed to think it was a good thing for me.

While I am certainly glad that you did your venting at RFM rather than at home (though I wonder how successful you really were in keeping it out of your home--given the tension between you and your wife and daughter), it is not so much the venue that makes it "bad" in my eyes, but the fact that you felt a need to vent and grieve at all. That you felt the need suggest to me that there is something amiss in your cognitions that will remain uncorrected as long as you think you got it out of your system through venting and grieving--something that might inadvertently surfice with other challenges you may face in your future.

But, if you have moved on, then why are you still here? Why are you and I at odds?

Why am I here? For one, I was invited here. Also, as I explained in another thread (oddly enough entitled "why are we here?"), I like talking about Mormonism. I find it fascinating. It's part of who I am, and I find it interesting.

I don't doubt that is a factor. But are you sure that is the only or even the primary reason?

Could it be that your disbelief isn't that confident, and you are being inwardly torn this way and that, and you are hoping to find something solid either way to hold onto and stand firm? If so, there is no crime in that?

I ask, because I think that is what may really be at the heart of your "venting" and "grief". You weren't so much agitated at the Church and feeling a loss because of the Church (though that is the way it was interpreted in your mind), but quite beside yourself with the maddening battle within--a battle that I believe still continues, and one that I fear has only been temporarily diminished through a dysfunctional fix (i.e. your venting at RFM, etc.).

There is a functional way to end that inner battle--if, in fact, that is what has been going on with you.

Why are we at odds? I suspect it's more a personality clash than anything else. I will readily admit that when I saw your name, I thought, Oh, no, not him. I unfortunately carried a lot of past history into our conversation, which you saw as defensiveness. I apologize for that, Wade, but seeing your name made my guard go up.

I'm sure you're a nice enough person, but our conversation has been marked by a lot of verbal jabs and questioned motives, and I'm not so sure it's been a healthy exchange for either of us. So far, I've come away from the conversation more convinced that I had good reason to be on guard, and you clearly are convinced that I have serious emotional problems. We're not exactly following Section 50, are we? Thanks, John

I don't know about Section 50, but we certainly haven't been following Section 121 (particularly vs. 40 - 45). And, I take full responsibility for the part I played in this. What do you say we start anew? Let's both stop taking verbal jabs and questioning motives, and rightly treat each other as the nice guys that we are. I won't consider you as havng serious emotional problems, and hopefully you won't say "oh no" and misinterpret my mention of certain supposed cognitive distortions as such. Agreed? ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_desert_vulture]

Well, Runtu, I guess that makes DV a "conspiracy theorist with a fertile imagination", too! ;)

You guys might not think I know a buttload of crap about the gospel, but I do.... I do.

-DV

[_desert_vulture]

From my perspective, the folks at RFM are, through cognitive distortions, unnecessarily creating their own pain and suffering and anger and loss, and the manner in which they are mis-directing their venting and grieving adds to, and unnecessarily prolongs, the cyle of pain and suffering and anger and loss for themselves as well as for others.

Your premise is flawed. You are assuming that their pain, suffering, anger and loss is self-inflicted. What if it isn't? What if there is no distortion? What if their cognitive abilities are razor-sharp, and their thinking is crystal clear? Then what.

[_wenglund]

Your assuming that calling something "venting" and "grieving" makes it so. Your assuming that there is a need for "recovery". The truth is, while these fine folks may believe they have good cause to "vent" and "grieve" and "recover", they really don't. That perception is born of cognitive distortions, and it is a delusional way of masking the real cause of their angst. You are unwittingly enabling their delusion by also assuming it is real and valid. They aren't going to address the real cause of their angst and dysfunction by "venting" and "grieving". In fact, they may simply become further deluded.

Now, I understand that you and truth dancer are attempting to be supportive, and you just want the best. That desire is to be admired. Unfortunately, from my perspective, you are unwittingly doing just the opposite.

And, I am aware of truth dancer's professional back ground. I don't personally put much stock in new age therapy. I prefer scientifically proven methods of therapy, like cognitive behavioral therapy.

You have to be the most pompous individual I have ever carried on a conversation with. What gives you the right to discount what is going on in someone else's life? Why must you judge people and make blanket statements about whether or not what they are going through is valid or not? That would be like me saying that you must not be a very good practicing Mormon because you are, admittedly, 51 years old and never married. You didn't obey God's law and get married. It doesn't matter that there are circumstances in your life surrounding this that make a difference. It's only the end result that matters.

Do you see how condescending and rediculous this sounds, Wade?

Also...Runtu listed documented stages of grief which are utilized in cognitive behavioral therapy.

Please share with us your scientific methods that are going to work for everyone here, no matter what their circumstance.

I am fine with you seeing me as pompous or whatever. My point in being here isn't to impress you or anyone else. I am here to fix what I see as broken.

You...well you are welcome to have your group hugs and your PC patrols and unwitting enabling.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

That might be true if your "venting" and "grief" were valid, and the real cause of your high emotional state. I have good reason to doubt that it was--I don't say this by way of insult or discounting, but by way of third-party diagnostics. And if my suspicions are correct, then while you may have calmed your need to vent and grieve, the real issue remains unaddressed.

My high emotional state back then was the result of several factors: the loss of my worldview and faith, depression, and my wife's health problems. It was kind of the perfect storm, as it were.

While I am certainly glad that you did your venting at RFM rather than at home (though I wonder how successful you really were in keeping it out of your home--given the tension between you and your wife and daughter), it is not so much the venue that makes it "bad" in my eyes, but the fact that you felt a need to vent and grieve at all. That you felt the need suggest to me that there is something amiss in your cognitions that will remain uncorrected as long as you think you got it out of your system through venting and grieving--something that might inadvertently surfice with other challenges you may face in your future.

I think I have been pretty successful at keeping the venting away from home. In fact, only 2 of my children know of my unbelief. I agreed with my wife that I would not talk to them unless they approached me. My oldest said he was relieved to know that he wasn't the only one in the family who didn't believe. My daughter took it rather badly, as I said.

I don't doubt that is a factor. But are you sure that is the only or even the primary reason?

Could it be that your disbelief isn't that confident, and you are being inwardly torn this way and that, and you are hoping to find something solid either way to hold onto and stand firm? If so, there is no crime in that?

Heavens no, Wade. The one constant through all the turmoil of the last year is that the church finally made sense to me when I admitted it was false. No more rationalizations, no more shelving things. It just made sense. If anything, the inner tearing was when I was trying to convince myself that it all made sense, that it was true.

I ask, because I think that is what may really be at the heart of your "venting" and "grief". You weren't so much agitated at the Church and feeling a loss because of the Church (though that is the way it was interpreted in your mind), but quite beside yourself with the maddening battle within--a battle that I believe still continues, and one that I fear has only been temporarily diminished through a dysfunctional fix (i.e. your venting at RFM, etc.).

The venting and grief came from feeling first that everything I had built my life on was gone, and then I felt angry and hurt that I had done so much and invested so much for something that wasn't true. I was 40 years old, and my life was half over, and I realized I had lived the first half under false pretenses.

There is a functional way to end that inner battle--if, in fact, that is what has been going on with you.

I have my inner battles about a lot of things, but that's not one of them.

I don't know about Section 50, but we certainly haven't been following Section 121 (particularly vs. 40 - 45). And, I take full responsibility for the part I played in this. What do you say we start anew? Let's both stop taking verbal jabs and questioning motives, and rightly treat each other as the nice guys that we are. I won't consider you as havng serious emotional problems, and hopefully you won't say "oh no" and misinterpret my mention of certain supposed cognitive distortions as such. Agreed? ;-)

I'll certainly do my best, Wade.

[_wenglund]

You have to be the most pompous individual I have ever carried on a conversation with. What gives you the right to discount what is going on in someone else's life? Why must you judge people and make blanket statements about whether or not what they are going through is valid or not? That would be like me saying that you must not be a very good practicing Mormon because you are, admittedly, 51 years old and never married. You didn't obey God's law and get married. It doesn't matter that there are circumstances in your life surrounding this that make a difference. It's only the end result that matters.

Do you see how condescending and rediculous this sounds, Wade?

Also...Runtu listed documented stages of grief which are utilized in cognitive behavioral therapy.

Please share with us your scientific methods that are going to work for everyone here, no matter what their circumstance.

It is kind of strange for a virtual stranger to tell people that their feelings are invalid. Of course, it makes more sense when you realize that Wade belongs to an organization that accepts no valid reasons for having negative feelings about said organization.

I'll ignore that jab...and simply reiterate that I think your feelings were reasonable given the cognitions, and thus valid in that sense.

Thanks, -Wade

[_wenglund]

From my perspective, the folks at RFM are, through cognitive distortions, unnecessarily creating their own pain and suffering and anger and loss, and the manner in which they are mis-directing their venting and grieving adds to, and unnecessarily prolongs, the cyle of pain and suffering and anger and loss for themselves as well as for others.

Your premise is flawed. You are assuming that their pain, suffering, anger and loss is self-inflicted. What if it isn't? What if there is no distortion? What if their cognitive abilities are razor-sharp, and their thinking is crystal clear? Then what.

I am certainly willing to test this either way. Are you? Are they?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Gadianton]

I don't doubt that is a factor. But are you sure that is the only or even the primary reason?

Could it be that your disbelief isn't that confident, and you are being inwardly torn this way and that, and you are hoping to find something solid either way to hold onto and stand firm? If so, there is no crime in that?

Heavens no, Wade. The one constant through all the turmoil of the last year is that the church finally made sense to me when I admitted it was false. No more rationalizations, no more shelving things. It just made sense. If anything, the inner tearing was when I was trying to convince myself that it all made sense, that it was true.

Why were you trying to convince yourself of that?

I ask, because I think that is what may really be at the heart of your "venting" and "grief". You weren't so much agitated at the Church and feeling a loss because of the Church (though that is the way it was interpreted in your mind), but quite beside yourself with the maddening battle within--a battle that I believe still continues, and one that I fear has only been temporarily diminished through a dysfunctional fix (i.e. your venting at RFM, etc.).

The venting and grief came from feeling first that everything I had built my life on was gone, and then I felt angry and hurt that I had done so much and invested so much for something that wasn't true. I was 40 years old, and my life was half over, and I realized I had lived the first half under false pretenses.

There is a reason you felt a sense of loss and anger and grief, rather than, like many people who experience a paradigm shift (religious or otherwise), a sense of relief, liberation, hope, freedom, and an excitement for future prospects. Why do you suppose that is?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-