Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

[Morley]

Earlier you mentioned that I reminded you of your brother.

Believe me, it’s been all to your benefit. I’ve cut you an extraordinary amount of slack because of it, and assigned you the best of motives.

[Morley]

First question-Is more Information always better than less information? Answer:No
Second question-Is it generally better to have more information on a particular topic than less in order to make reasoned judgments and conclusions? Yes

I’ll leave that as it is. If you want to continue on with your nitpicking/gotcha thing, thinking that by doing so you’re pointing out a deficiency or intentional distortion or misrepresentation, by all means, go for it.

Earlier you mentioned that I reminded you of your brother.

I see my brother in MG. In fact, have to continuously remind myself that MG is not my literal bother. My brother has the same responses, the same tactics, the same style, the same beliefs. And I love him dearly. Sometimes all of that that is engaged when I read MG. I need to give up on them both.

There is a danger in projection. Less than positive (how much less than positive?) experiences with your brother in regards to his religious beliefs (to the point of…?) is likely to cloud your judgement.

This idea of “giving up on them both” can have multiple meanings. What is it that you mean?

I see your responses as having an “ax to grind” quality to them. To the point of ‘whatever it takes I’m going to bring this guy down’(brother issues?). MG is the same, same, same, same (count them, oh yeah, you did in your other post). That’s EXACTLY what I’ve suggested that we avoid Morley. I’m not sure that we can have any semblance of a civil discussion if you’re going for points on technicalities and making stuff up.

Trump does that kind of crap.

Unfortunately I would not be surprised if that is exactly what you come back with.

Down on a technicality.

That doesn’t get us anywhere.

My experience here tells me (and yes, this is in my head, I own it) that there are some very defensive people here that show indications that they have been hurt and have not been able to stay on and try to complete the road to recovery.

I could be wrong. I don’t expect that anyone would admit to it, even if true.

Anyway, this discussion on free will I have found interesting. I have learned things from the A.I. references that I would not have learned otherwise. Surely not from what others were contributing.

It is generally better to have more information on a particular topic than less in order to make reasoned judgment.

Sorry I’m being a little harsh, but it is what it is from my observations.

Maybe it would be better if you didn’t interact with me if you can see this is where it ends up. We’re not doing anyone any favors by doing so and it takes away from a perfectly good discussion.

Why come in with all the ‘I hate A.I. crap’?

Ok. I’m done venting. Have a nice weekend. From a previous post it sounds like you may be looking forward to a beer or two.

Enjoy.

Regards,
MG

Not sure what all of this is, nor what it means—or what precipitated the meltdown.

I mentioned your deception (or what you call a technicality), and now you’re talking about your defensiveness and road to recovery or something like that. I am so sorry. I hope that you get the help and love you need. Be well, MG.

[MG 2.0]

Not sure what all of this is, nor what it means…

Ah, the old feigning confusion ploy.

…or what precipitated the meltdown.

Ah, the old meltdown ploy.

I mentioned your deception (or what you call a technicality), and now you’re talking about your defensiveness and road to recovery or something like that.

Total misread.

For being a smart guy, the playing dumb routine ain’t working brother. I’m referring to your defensiveness. You appear to be stumbling over your words. You may want to try harder and read for comprehension. One too many? Come back when you’re sobered up?

I am so sorry.

Ah, the empathy ploy. Works every time. I feel your pain.

I hope that you get the help and love you need. Be well, MG.

That’s awfully sweet of you, Morley.

What a character. Sheesh.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Earlier you mentioned that I reminded you of your brother.

Believe me, it’s been all to your benefit. I’ve cut you an extraordinary amount of slack because of it, and assigned you the best of motives.

Gee, thanks.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

Not sure what all of this is, nor what it means…

Ah, the old feigning confusion ploy.

…or what precipitated the meltdown.

Ah, the old meltdown ploy.

I mentioned your deception (or what you call a technicality), and now you’re talking about your defensiveness and road to recovery or something like that.

Total misread.

For being a smart guy, the playing dumb routine ain’t working brother. I’m referring to your defensiveness. You appear to be stumbling over your words. You may want to try harder and read for comprehension. One too many? Come back when you’re sobered up?

I am so sorry.

Ah, the empathy ploy. Works every time. I feel your pain.

I hope that you get the help and love you need. Be well, MG.

That’s awfully sweet of you, Morley.

What a character. Sheesh.

Regards,
MG

Okay, then MG. Lay it out for me.

I really am confused. I'm not sure what you're saying or where this is coming from.

I don't care what you do. I don't expect anything of you. You did just what I was pretty sure you would --and what I've learned to expect. If I ever hope to be surprised, it's okay that I never am. It's more than okay. You should always be true to who you are and have always been.

I'm not defensive, so I thought you must be speaking of yourself. I've never mentioned any road to recovery because there's not one. By this point in life, I hurt over nothing. For that reason, I thought all of this must have been self-referential. If it's not, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't care if you deceived me or not. And if you want us to both agree that what you did should be called a technicality, then that's okay. I don't have that much invested here.

I will try harder to read for comprehension and I'm perfectly sober. I never drink and type.

I do have empathy. I've always had empathy for you. But that really doesn't matter, does it?

You are who you are. I know you and wouldn't expect anything different. No one on the board expects anything different of you. We may ask for this and that, but we know we're never going to get it. You are MG exercising his free will.

[Morley]

Believe me, it’s been all to your benefit. I’ve cut you an extraordinary amount of slack because of it, and assigned you the best of motives.

Gee, thanks.

Sarcasm noted.

It's true, whether you like reading it or not. I cut you slack and engage you because you remind me of him. I don't know very much about you, but for all of his faults, he always was a great guy. That said, I'm absolutely sure you are, too.

[drumdude]

…the idea that I will cease to exist after death and that nothing mattered in a grand sense is not a comforting thought for me.

Does that impact the way you live your life? What is it that you have hope in/for?

I came across this organization a while back. You might find it interesting/useful.

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/

Regards,
MG

In practice I live as if I will never die. Most people don’t go around during their daily lives ruminating that it will all end at any moment. I also live as if I have free will.

There’s a difference between knowing a truth and integrating it into every waking moment. For example, most Christians are familiar with how to act Christlike, but they fall short the majority of the time.

[MG 2.0]

I do have empathy. I've always had empathy for you.

As I do for you and others who have lost their belief/faith in the church. I give you the benefit of a doubt that you’re coming from a good place. A place of stability in your personal life where you are happy and fulfilled. Over the years I’ve heard narratives from people that have left the church and they have, in one way or the other, been damaged or hurt. You’ve seen/heard those stories.

So when I’m here on this board I don’t know (because of the nature of writing vs. listening and seeing) whether or not I’m communicating with someone who is carrying around some real hurt and pain and may not have healed completely.

You say you have. I will take you at your word. Your comments in reference to your brother caused me to consider whether there might be some ‘familial connection’ that might be unresolved in regards to friction connected with church activity/belief. You said that I reminded you of your brother in four different ways.

But I’m not your literal brother.

In my mind I felt that there might be some unresolved trauma or ‘bad blood’ (even though you love your brother) that is still in a state of flux or has not been resolved and so some of that is either consciously or unconsciously transferred in your dealings with someone on a board who you do NOT know but you may associate with your brother.

Some assumptions there, yes.

You did get a bit jumbled up in recognizing what I was saying in regards to being ‘defensive’ and admitting that you were in a state of confusion. Last night was a Friday night, end of the week, and I semi jokingly asked if you might have had one too many. Somewhat in jest.

The problem with a forum like this is we all bring something to the room as I said earlier in the thread. This will impact how we see and hear the ‘other’. You’ve said a number of times now that you KNOW me.

I don’t think you do. Except for stating the fact that you think I’m a nice guy. You got that right.

You came into the thread accusing me of malfeasance in my communications with Res Ipsa. Essentially you made a mountain out of a molehill. I was being facetious. Period. And mildly at that. This comment which you ‘brought to the table’ then steered things slightly off course. You then came back and started belly aching about my use of A.I.. I believe I was doing so appropriately. But you hunkered down.

The thread then went sideways. THAT bothered me, yes. What was a good discussion, with Imwashingmypirate chiming in, became a discussion on A.I. and its pros and cons. You could have simply started a new thread on A.I. usage on message boards. But again, you hunkered down and steered a good conversation off course.

So it is what is is and here we are. The conversation devolved into a he said and he said back and forth which is a WASTE of your time and mine.

This has happened so many times I’ve lost count. The number of times that one poster or another comes into a thread to make it all about MG has been disappointing. Many good conversations have been disrupted and sidetracked because of tribal considerations and the tendency to polarize.

Again, as I’ve mentioned over and over again, the only way to get past this is to look at the ‘other’ and give him/her the benefit of a doubt, exercise some grace, and pay attention to the content of the discussion rather than finding a reason to shoot the messenger.

The way you folks continually do this with DCP is disheartening, to say the least, and in the kindest way possible.

Anyway, we’ve both attempted to explain our views. We will probable disagree on the motives and methods of the other. The only way to get past that is the simple act of being kind. There is too little of that going around.

Accusations seem to rule the day. I can do better. Others can too.

Hope springs eternal.

Again, have a nice weekend.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

Over the years I’ve heard narratives from people that have left the church and they have, in one way or the other, been damaged or hurt. You’ve seen/heard those stories.

Like your A.I.'s (non) definition of free will, saying that people have been damaged or hurt is basically saying nothing. People have been damaged or hurt in every walk of life. In fact, Boyd K. Packer explicitly taught that missionaries should seek out damaged and hurt people as they make easier recruits. If many apostates are damaged or hurt, it's about like saying many people who come from a big city have been damaged or hurt. Where isn't there people who have significantly been damaged or hurt? My dad, who I've mentioned was the supreme member missionary, and the most dedicated person to the "gospel" I've ever known, was also the most damaged and hurt person I've ever known.

The supreme irony of accusing apostates of arguing against the Church out of anger and hurt is that you're essentially making an argument against free will. Going the Freudian route of looking for unconscious motives for someone making an argument, rather than believing in the merits of the argument as claimed, is denying them volition. So way to make your case. I don't blame you for not learning much from the chatbox, of course; nor do I blame you for not having learned much in your many decades of church membership.

[MG 2.0]

Over the years I’ve heard narratives from people that have left the church and they have, in one way or the other, been damaged or hurt. You’ve seen/heard those stories.

…saying that people have been damaged or hurt is basically saying nothing. People have been damaged or hurt in every walk of life.

Well, of course they have. My point, if you read carefully, was that this can have an impact on how a person enters the room of discussion. I suggested that this might be the case with Morley.

My thinking is that these sorts of life experiences that exmormons or inactive members may have had will express themselves in the dialogue methodology and practice of posters on a board such as this.

You cannot be neutral.

That’s why I’m pointing out that we have to consciously almost force ourselves to exercise grace and forbearance without the natural tendency to fall into the trap of polarization and seeking to entrap the ‘other’.

Do find yourself slipping into that mode of discussion?

Regards,
MG