Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[honorentheos]

Valid point [...]

I'm sorry - I can't seem to see what 'logical fallacies' Valo is referring to. Could you point to one for me?

[Of course there is always the possibility that by 'logical fallacies' Valo simply means 'statements that I do not think are true'. But as you know, that is by no means the same thing.)

Sometimes in the interest of progressing a point you have to meet folks were they are. In Valo's case it seems logical fallacies encompassed what had been shared so far. And on those grounds I agree, it's logically fallacious to require a God filter be applied to the evaluation of the evidence. Especially when we are talking about a book with significant 19th century fingerprints all over it including some rather disgust views about Native Americans the book common at the time but largely disappeared except among Mormons.

To tag onto that, I disagree with folks who view Mormonism as a generally positive influence. Systemic prejudices are baked into the Mormon worldview that affect diverse groups. Ethical reasoning is reduced to "follow the prophet" where the impacts of doing so are assumed to be not only good but godly with no internal demand to consider the moral impacts of one's behaviours so long as they are consistent with what the Mormon church tells someone is good. It doesn't foster good people. It fosters shallow people whose goodness is superficial. Just as with all people there are genuinely good Mormons who will do good regardless of other considerations. But that's also due to their being willing to ignore the church when it conflicts with the direction being pointed to by their moral compass.

Anyway, Valo's shadow comes out when he shows up here.

[honorentheos]

...how is it possible an organization that renders moral judgment to a demand for obedience not more like the plan Satan put forward? Doesn't it stand to reason that learning to judge morally and overcome the test of mortality to learn true godliness may in fact render the Church an obstacle or test to be overcome to learn to think as God thinks and feel as God feels?

Jesus said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. There is no demand that anyone obey...

Hi MG,

Thanks for illustrating the problem much better than I could have. Baked into your answer is a circular morality: What God expects of us is good. We know the good because of the fruits of an action. When the fruits of an action align with what the LDS church tells us is good, then we know the fruit is good. We are not compelled to do good but invited to do good. Doing good helps us better understand what God expects of us...

Mormonism doesn't teach moral reasoning. You get platitudes about loving sinners while hating sins; financial fraud at a grand scale isn't fraud when it's done on the interest of God 's church led by His representatives; prejudices contingent on church teachings past and present are not wrongs committed against other human beings but unfortunately consequences of other people's actions and choices; etc, etc, etc.

Anyway, thanks for answering.

[I Have Questions]

To tag onto that, I disagree with folks who view Mormonism as a generally positive influence. Systemic prejudices are baked into the Mormon worldview that affect diverse groups. Ethical reasoning is reduced to "follow the prophet" where the impacts of doing so are assumed to be not only good but godly with no internal demand to consider the moral impacts of one's behaviours so long as they are consistent with what the Mormon church tells someone is good. It doesn't foster good people. It fosters shallow people whose goodness is superficial. Just as with all people there are genuinely good Mormons who will do good regardless of other considerations. But that's also due to their being willing to ignore the church when it conflicts with the direction being pointed to by their moral compass.

I think that’s an extremely well articulated summation of the Church today. I agree with this description 100%.

[I Have Questions]

<snipped>


Regards,
MG

What did the Lehites use to trade with?

Hi MG 2.0 you may have missed my question, so here it is again. What did the Lehites use to trade with?

[ceeboo]

Hey MG -

Fow what it's worth, I think your participation on the board brings a diverse perspective to the table (I appreciate and value that) and I admire your willingness to come here and engage.

The world would be a lesser place without the restoration. Members of the church have had positive influence in the world at large and in the lives of individuals scattered throughout the globe.

In my mind, this can be said about many groups of people (as well as individual people), not just members of the Mormon church - I would also suggest that this has nothing to do with the restoration - Nor is this exclusive to members of the LDS church.

People that belong to a group and or wear a label (Mormon, Baptist, Hindu, Atheist, neighborhood watch, little league baseball, Islam, business owners, teachers, doctors without borders, Boy Scouts, JW's, Catholics, etc, etc) does not erase the individual human beings behind the labels or that belong to these groups. In addition, there is negative impact that ought to be considered and/or evaluated within these broad and complex discussions.

Human beings can have (and often do have) positive influence/impact to and for their fellow human beings, but they also can have (and often do have) negative influence/impact to and for their fellow human beings.

There are a variety of reasons that people can provide to explain this. In my mind, it is cemented in the reality that all of us have been created in the in the image of our Creator - meaning, personal beliefs. personal worldviews, what group we happen to belong to, or what label we happen to wear, does not erase a suggestion that we are all created beings that were created in the image of our Creator.

[yellowstone123]

How have Tadd Callister and Jacob Hansen had a positive influence on the world at large?

That’s hard to know in any specificity. World writ large, probably not much. They’ve had more influence on individuals.

I know I was influenced in a positive way by Tad Callister’s talk. And I’ve been able to share it with others including those here.

Interestingly, I don’t think anyone has made much in the way of any comment on his presentation.

Regards,
MG

,


MG 2.0, thank you for your response. I've tried listening to Tad Callister's talks before but found them frustrating due to his conclusions and tone, which seemed to imply that the topics he discussed should be self-evident to everyone.

I'll try listening to one of his Book of Mormon talks again soon, but I'll break it into smaller segments this time. Sometimes it takes me a week or even a month to get through a presentation if I anticipate frustration.

I have a keen interest in the Book of Isaiah.

Could you explain why 1 Nephi 19 transitions to Isaiah chapters 48 and 49. Certain phrases in those Book of Mormon Isaiah chapters, like "waters of baptism" and "wickedness of pastors," caught my attention. It almost feels like Joseph Smith’s early 19th century religious thought is speaking as his focus at the time seemed to be on the perceived wickedness of pastors (or priests). Perhaps he could have used the wickedness of shepherds like the writers of Jeremiah and Ezekiel used since this is the Old Testament times but “wickedness of pastors” appearers to be what God wanted so he needed to go with those words.

I'll refrain from speculating on when those chapters were written, but what value do Isaiah 48 and 49 add to 1 Nephi chapter 19? I'm struggling to understand the transition. Feel free to point me towards relevant writings by DCP or his associates, but I've decided at my age that if I can't grasp something, I'll simply visit UCLA and ask them if they could read their paper, or go to a local synagogue in the Fairfax district to discuss it with a Rabbi.

[MG 2.0]

MG, what do you think of these Mormonism and Unique Science observations:

1. Theory of Relativity - Because time is relative, a case can be made that the Garden of Eden in Missouri existed on Pangaea before the continents broke up, placing the Adamite inhabitants as well as the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East, while hundreds of millions of years passed around them. With the eventual drift, the Tigris, Euphrates, Mississippi, and Missouri rivers separated.

2. Human Anatomy and Physiology - Women cannot hold the Priesthood because they lack the requisite priesthood antennae.

3. Kinetic Potential - When Mayan Elephant is on a thread, John Dehlin is not the elephant in the room, but he has the kinetic potential of being on the thread.

4. Chemistry - Under the right circumstances, humor and LDS message boards have the makings of an 8th-grade volcano eruption propellant.

5. Abnormal Psychology - Evidence and belief Trump each other.

Limericks associated with your numbered statements. From your friends at Pi A.I..

1.

In Missouri's Garden of Eden,
A place where time's relative and freeing,
The continents broke,
Tigris and Euphrates woke,
And Pangaea was then to be seen.

2.

In Priesthood, women must wait,
For antennae are not on their fate,
A requirement it seems,
For Priesthood esteem,
To be blessed with a higher state.

3.

John Dehlin, a kinetic force,
On a thread with a Mayan-like source,
He's not an elephant,
But he has potential,
To be there, of course.

4.

Humor and LDS message boards meet,
And their chemistry's oh, so sweet,
Under the right conditions,
They cause eruptions,
An 8th-grade volcano feat.

5.

In the realm of abnormal psych,
Belief and evidence do not sync,
They Trump one another,
This strange kind of brother,
A phenomenon quite unique.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Hey MG -

Fow what it's worth, I think your participation on the board brings a diverse perspective to the table (I appreciate and value that) and I admire your willingness to come here and engage.

The world would be a lesser place without the restoration. Members of the church have had positive influence in the world at large and in the lives of individuals scattered throughout the globe.

In my mind, this can be said about many groups of people (as well as individual people), not just members of the Mormon church - I would also suggest that this has nothing to do with the restoration - Nor is this exclusive to members of the LDS church.

People that belong to a group and or wear a label (Mormon, Baptist, Hindu, Atheist, neighborhood watch, little league baseball, Islam, business owners, teachers, doctors without borders, Boy Scouts, JW's, Catholics, etc, etc) does not erase the individual human beings behind the labels or that belong to these groups. In addition, there is negative impact that ought to be considered and/or evaluated within these broad and complex discussions.

Human beings can have (and often do have) positive influence/impact to and for their fellow human beings, but they also can have (and often do have) negative influence/impact to and for their fellow human beings.

There are a variety of reasons that people can provide to explain this. In my mind, it is cemented in the reality that all of us have been created in the in the image of our Creator - meaning, personal beliefs. personal worldviews, what group we happen to belong to, or what label we happen to wear, does not erase a suggestion that we are all created beings that were created in the image of our Creator.

Ceeboo, I couldn’t have said this any better. Profound and true. I may have to cut and paste this into Google Keep and hang on to it. I’ve never done that before in regards to anything someone has shared on this board.

In my mind ‘the restoration’ plays an important part in God’s work on the earth but is in no way ALL his work. Everyone is a child of God and has his imprint on their soul/mind. We are all created in his image and are given certain attributes and gifts that we then share with each other and the world writ large if our influence spreads that far (leaders and influencers of all sorts).

We have so much more in common as fellow humans than what differentiates us. You are my neighbor. Others on this board are my neighbor even though we may strongly disagree on religious matters. But that’s OK! And I’ve said that a number of times. Over the years I’ve personally met and eaten lunch with a couple members of this board and found them to be ‘regular guys’.

Who would have thought! ha ha.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Just as with all people there are genuinely good Mormons who will do good regardless of other considerations.

Thanks for recognizing that.

Some of us even have our own moral compass.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Could you explain why 1 Nephi 19 transitions to Isaiah chapters 48 and 49….

That’s above my pay grade.

Regards,
MG