If the Word of Wisdom prohibits alcohol consumption

[_maklelan]

Damn, you people will split hairs forever wont you !

It wasn't a commandment then, it is now. Its about overcomeing the flesh, and being spiritual. Its about honoring your body and treating it as a temple.

Is this really a real issue with you?

Isn't God supposed to be unchanging? Eternal? Aren't his doctrines supposed to be the same?

If D&C 89 says it isn't a commandment, why is it a commandment?

Yeah, it is an issue. Not as big as Joseph's paedophilia or other such issues. . . but still an issue.

Your etic perspective makes your irrational perspective understandable, but there is a huge difference between doctrine and practices. PLease learn the difference.

[_Draig Goch]

That was more directed at Bryan than anyone else.

The principles of the gospel are unchangeing, how we get people to adhere to them can change according to the needs of the people. Hence a "living" church led by revelation. Not a dead one clinging to creeds.

Nothing like these?

A Mormon must have faith in God the Eternal Father, in Jesus Christ His Son who atoned for our sins as Savior and Redeemer, and in the Holy Ghost; believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth in these latter days; and believe that the priesthood keys of authority to direct the Church and perform the ordinances of the gospel are held exclusively by the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and no other.

A Mormon must sustain the President of the Church, his counselors, and other members of the Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators whose authority derives from the priesthood keys of authority; sustain the other General Authorities and local Church leaders as exercising properly delegated priesthood authority; and not support or belong to any group whose teachings or practices are in conflict with those of the Church.

To stand approved of God, a Mormon must live the law of chastity, pay a full financial tithe of ten percent, follow the dietary laws of the Church, strictly follow the dress code of the temple, be honest when dealing with other people, honor financial commitments to former spouses and dependent children, and attend Church meetings.

Nah, Mormons don't cling to creeds...

[_Bryan Inks]

I'm surprised that people knowledgeable enough in church history and doctrine to tell active and happy members where their interpretations and understandings are in error are so unaware of a very basic and well known piece of church history. The revelation is given to the weak and the weakest of the saints. It is council to help those with procilivities towards excess in these areas stay clear; a fence, if you will. It was given as a help to those who suffered from addiction. It was not a commandment until September 9, 1851, when, in Conference, it was made a commandment. Joseph Smith also drank tea, by the way, but since he never had a problem with it (he always abhorred drunkenness) he obviously did not feel he was controlled enough by it to need to follow the council. Today people council others to avoid cola drinks. It's not a commandment, but many feel such a fence will help them to avoid or overcome addiction, and BYU has obviously decided it will make it easier for people to live according to that fence. I've had cola drinks all my life and am not at all effected by some caffeine, so I don't feel it's a fence that I need to put up, but if it is one day added to the commandments I will live it. Piece of cake.

So as long as someone doesn't have drunkeness issues, they can drink alcohol and still pass a temple recommend interview? Am I translating you into simple English correctly?

I can smoke pot, do acid, take ecstacy, drink wine or rum or vodka. . . and as long as I don't have a problem, I'm ok for the temple?

I'd ask where you are from, but it is evident that it isn't the same planet that Mormonism is from. . . because what you just said is b***s*** as far as the Church is concerned.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't use foul language in this forum, and I'd also appreciate it if you'd read what I have to say. The commandment was established in the 1850's. It is a commandment today, not council, but it was only council before the 1850's.

You haven't the first clue what I do and do not know about the church, but it is blatantly obvious that no collection of evidence or facts will ever penetrate an ego and conviction as dogmatically reinforced as yours, if the above is any indication. If you have anything new to bring to the table then do so, but if you're just going to ejaculate idiotic insults then I'd prefer you just kept them to yourself.

I'd appreciate it if you would use some logic in this forum, and I'd also appreciate it if you'd think about what you have to say.

First you say that it isn't a commandment. Then you say it is a commandment for the weak. Then you say that it isn't a commandment for the strong-willed.

I questioned you on this and rather than confront my argument, you choose to horn in on a single word. . . merely adding paint to the picture of yourself as a purile mind.

You are correct, I don't know or, more importantly, care what you do and do not know about the Church. But your personal opinions do not seem swayed by what your Church teaches and all the evidence or facts as to the inconsistencies will never penetrate an ego and conviction as dogmatically reinforced as yours, if the above is any indication. If you have anything new to bring to the table then do so, but if you're just going to ejaculate idiotic personal theories, then I'd prefer you just kept them to yourself.

[Edited to remove certain confrontational statements]

[_Ray A]

I'm surprised that people knowledgeable enough in church history and doctrine to tell active and happy members where their interpretations and understandings are in error are so unaware of a very basic and well known piece of church history. The revelation is given to the weak and the weakest of the saints. It is council to help those with procilivities towards excess in these areas stay clear; a fence, if you will. It was given as a help to those who suffered from addiction. It was not a commandment until September 9, 1851, when, in Conference, it was made a commandment. Joseph Smith also drank tea, by the way, but since he never had a problem with it (he always abhorred drunkenness) he obviously did not feel he was controlled enough by it to need to follow the council. Today people council others to avoid cola drinks. It's not a commandment, but many feel such a fence will help them to avoid or overcome addiction, and BYU has obviously decided it will make it easier for people to live according to that fence. I've had cola drinks all my life and am not at all effected by some caffeine, so I don't feel it's a fence that I need to put up, but if it is one day added to the commandments I will live it. Piece of cake.

This is the old Joseph Fielding Smith line. Unfortunately it's a myth.

[_Mephitus]

Then why is abstinence from alcohol a requirement to get into the temple and, ultimately, heaven?

I don't know. Why was circumcision once so important God was willing to kill Moses's son over it, but no longer so?

I made a topic on another forum on that subject, you can find it here for those interested to read.(admitedly more on the ethics side than the theological side)

http://www.theforumsite.com/forum/topic ... ion/111916

[_maklelan]

That was more directed at Bryan than anyone else.

The principles of the gospel are unchangeing, how we get people to adhere to them can change according to the needs of the people. Hence a "living" church led by revelation. Not a dead one clinging to creeds.

Nothing like these?

A Mormon must have faith in God the Eternal Father, in Jesus Christ His Son who atoned for our sins as Savior and Redeemer, and in the Holy Ghost; believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth in these latter days; and believe that the priesthood keys of authority to direct the Church and perform the ordinances of the gospel are held exclusively by the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and no other.

A Mormon must sustain the President of the Church, his counselors, and other members of the Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators whose authority derives from the priesthood keys of authority; sustain the other General Authorities and local Church leaders as exercising properly delegated priesthood authority; and not support or belong to any group whose teachings or practices are in conflict with those of the Church.

To stand approved of God, a Mormon must live the law of chastity, pay a full financial tithe of ten percent, follow the dietary laws of the Church, strictly follow the dress code of the temple, be honest when dealing with other people, honor financial commitments to former spouses and dependent children, and attend Church meetings.

Nah, Mormons don't cling to creeds...

Would you mind citing those, please?

[_maklelan]

I'd appreciate it if you would use some logic in this forum, and I'd also appreciate it if you'd think about what you have to say.

Happily.

First you say that it isn't a commandment.

No, I said it wasn't a commandment until the 1850's. Don't change my words.

Then you say it is a commandment for the weak.

No, I said it was council for the weak. Now it is a commandment for everyone. Again, don't change my words.

Then you say that it isn't a commandment for the strong-willed.

Strike three. I said it wasn't a commandment for the strong-willed, but it wasn't a commandment for anyone, just like the revelation says. Don't change my words.

I questioned you on this and rather than confront my argument, you choose to horn in on a single word. . . merely adding paint to the picture of yourself as a purile mind.

Please respond to the above confrontation of your argument.

You are correct, I don't know or, more importantly, care what you do and do not know about the Church.

Great. Arguement over. Have a good day.

[_maklelan]

This is the old Joseph Fielding Smith line. Unfortunately it's a myth.

By all means, provide a source for your assertion.

[_Ray A]

This is the old Joseph Fielding Smith line. Unfortunately it's a myth.

By all means, provide a source for your assertion.

I can provide it for you in the most sanitised source available - The Ensign:

Have the Saints always given as much emphasis to the Word of Wisdom as they do today?
Leonard J. Arrington, Church Historian Many present-day members of the Church, in reading the diaries, letters, and histories of their grandparents and great-grandparents, have discovered that even those who were staunch members of the Church occasionally mention use of tea, coffee, tobacco, and intoxicating drinks. Even after the publication of the revelation called the Word of Wisdom in 1835, a number of loyal members continued to indulge in some of these habits despite the Lord’s counsel against it.

We should not be surprised at their doing so, because at that time some of them apparently felt that the revelation meant simply a word of advice and counsel—“not by commandment or constraint” (D&C 89:2)—somewhat on the order of “get plenty of sleep” and “don’t eat too much.” 1

From time to time Church leaders laid special stress on the importance of the revelation, and in the October general conference in 1851 the Saints agreed by uplifted hand that they would observe it. 2 Obedience to the Word of Wisdom was listed as a requirement to belong to the School of the Prophets, to the United Order, and to fully participate in many of the important activities of the Church. 3

President Brigham Young strongly urged obedience to the principle in the mid-1860s, President John Taylor and others in the 1880s, and President Joseph F. Smith and others in the early years of this century. President Joseph F. Smith, in a sermon, said, “The reason undoubtedly why the Word of Wisdom was given—as not by ‘commandment’ or ‘restraint’ was that at that time, at least, if it had been given as a commandment it would have brought every man [and woman] addicted to the use of these noxious things under condemnation; so the Lord was merciful and gave them a chance to overcome, before He brought them under the law.” 4 President Smith stated in 1908, “I believe that we are coming nearer to the point where we shall be able to observe that great and glorious law of temperance which the Lord Almighty has given unto us.” 5

It was in the 1920s, under the inspiration of President Heber J. Grant, that the Church as a whole began to consistently regard the revelation not only as “the order and will of God” but also as a binding principle. From that time forward Church leaders have uniformly and consistently insisted on obedience to the revelation—refraining from the use of tea, coffee, tobacco, and intoxicating beverages—as a condition of holding local leadership positions. And from that time forward, compliance with the ban on coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco has been considered essential to ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood, obtaining recommends to the temple, and participating in other ordinances and responsibilities. 6

We should not be impatient with the Word of Wisdom lapses of early Church members. Certainly there is no reason for us to be ashamed of them. They lived before the revelation was considered binding, and they acted upon the light and understanding which they had. Some of them observed the Word of Wisdom very carefully; others were less scrupulous in this one area but demonstrated their loyalty and goodness in countless other ways. And the Saints as a whole were much more temperate than nineteenth-century persons generally. Travelers to Latter-day Saint communities in the last century praised the temperance and moderation of the Saints. Extreme abuses, particularly drunkenness, were never at any time tolerated among the Saints.

The Lord adds to the Saints’ understanding constantly through the prophet and other leaders he calls. The early Saints struggled through terrible adversities and laid the great foundation of faith that is our heritage. They should be honored and appreciated for their faithfulness to the laws that God revealed to them. At the same time we should be grateful for any additional understanding that adds to our happiness and spiritual growth.

Gospel topic: Word of Wisdom

[_Ray A]

In other words, it was never made a commandment, but a "binding principle". The problem is that if it was made a commandment it would contradict D&C 89.