The Mormon God and Conditional Love

[_Gazelam]

Harmony,

If you want to derail the thread into a "prove the existence of God" tirade, please start another thread. or join in on the conversation we are having with Keene.

Where did I not show a foundation in what I wrote? I was quoteing scripture. I speak as one having authority because I do have authority, and a sure knowledge of the existence of The Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

The only one looking foolish here is you, denying the evidence that has been given to you by way of the spirit time and time again. But if you want to stand shoulder to shoulder with Infymus and Vegas, go right ahead. I was hoping you were better than that.

[Anonymous]

Harmony,

If you want to derail the thread into a "prove the existence of God" tirade, please start another thread. or join in on the conversation we are having with Keene.

Where did I not show a foundation in what I wrote? I was quoteing scripture. I speak as one having authority because I do have authority, and a sure knowledge of the existence of The Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

The only one looking foolish here is you, denying the evidence that has been given to you by way of the spirit time and time again. But if you want to stand shoulder to shoulder with Infymus and Vegas, go right ahead. I was hoping you were better than that.

(emphasis added)

I was going to reply something really sarcastic, but I was too busy redefining the bounds of irony. The former ones just couldn't quite hold Gaz's statement.

007

[_harmony]

Harmony,

If you want to derail the thread into a "prove the existence of God" tirade, please start another thread. or join in on the conversation we are having with Keene.

Where did I not show a foundation in what I wrote? I was quoteing scripture. I speak as one having authority because I do have authority, and a sure knowledge of the existence of The Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

The only one looking foolish here is you, denying the evidence that has been given to you by way of the spirit time and time again. But if you want to stand shoulder to shoulder with Infymus and Vegas, go right ahead. I was hoping you were better than that.

On the contrary, Gaz... I always couch my testimony in terms of "I believe" or "I think". I never say "I know". And you know why not? Because I have yet to see God's face. And until I do, I'm still in belief mode, not knowledge mode.

And you aren't quoting scripture that is universally accepted (there is no such thing), so it would behoove you to use a qualifier prior to your statements. Because LDS don't "know" any more than Evangelicals "know". We all just believe.

[_Gazelam]

You say "Because LDS don't "know" any more than Evangelicals "know". We all just believe."

That statement flies in the face of the entire Church. This church is founded upon the principle of revelation. What does that mean? It means that God himself is directing this Church. The Holy Ghost (who is God) inspires and guides everyone in the Church who apply themselves to the principle of honest and sincere prayer, thanking him for all he has given you and asking for inspiration and guidance in the name of Christ.

This is Christs church. He himself appeared to Joseph on numerous occasions, also sending his angels. He also has appeared to other prophets throughout this dispensation.

When I declare doctrine I speak as one who has had my prayer concerning this church and its authority confirmed by the Holy Ghost. I KNOW this church is true. This is the only Church that has the authority to seal the name of Christ upon those being baptised. This is the only church that has the authority to officiate in the Name of God. Period.

[_Sam Harris]

Well thank you, Harmony. You have just told me what I believe. I stand corrected.

No, I told you what Evangelicals believe. I spent my first 18 years as an Evangelical, GIMR. It's not like I didn't grow up in that world.

Sorry, but you're still equating evangelical as fundamentalist. I am evangelical, and I take offense that you percive my faith to be that of what you went through. I have a fundie family and spent time in their world as well. Evangelical faith is not the same as Fundamentalist Christian faith, and a careful perusal and comparison of the two can show that.

[_Jersey Girl]

Well thank you, Harmony. You have just told me what I believe. I stand corrected.

No, I told you what Evangelicals believe. I spent my first 18 years as an Evangelical, GIMR. It's not like I didn't grow up in that world.

Sorry, but you're still equating evangelical as fundamentalist. I am evangelical, and I take offense that you percive my faith to be that of what you went through. I have a fundie family and spent time in their world as well. Evangelical faith is not the same as Fundamentalist Christian faith, and a careful perusal and comparison of the two can show that.

Could you do that then? Make a comparison of the two?

Jersey Girl

[_Yoda]

Well thank you, Harmony. You have just told me what I believe. I stand corrected.

No, I told you what Evangelicals believe. I spent my first 18 years as an Evangelical, GIMR. It's not like I didn't grow up in that world.

Sorry, but you're still equating evangelical as fundamentalist. I am evangelical, and I take offense that you percive my faith to be that of what you went through. I have a fundie family and spent time in their world as well. Evangelical faith is not the same as Fundamentalist Christian faith, and a careful perusal and comparison of the two can show that.

Could you do that then? Make a comparison of the two?

Jersey Girl

I echo Jersey Girl's request, GIMR. I would love to read your definitions of the Evangelical vs. the Fundamental Christian and see how you contrast them. It's very interesting stuff! :)

I briefly skimmed the thread you provided a link to. It looked like everyone there had a little different take on their own definitions of each. I would love to hear more of your thoughts; if you would like to start a new thread, that's fine, but I also think it's relevant to the discussion here, so I wouldn't consider it derailing.

Thanks to everyone who has participated on this thread so far. I have really gained insight from reading everyone's views.

I have a few more questions on this topic I would like to add, but I can feel the beginning of a migraine coming on, so I'll have to gather my thoughts tomorrow when my head isn't quite so foggy.

Thanks again, guys!

:)

[_Sam Harris]

Especially toward the end of the 20th century, the secular media tended to describe traditional Christian believers as fundamentalists, including most evangelicals. However, in both movements, these terms fundamentalist and evangelical are not synonymous; the labels represent very distinct differences of approach which both groups are diligent to maintain.

I doubt my words will have any weight at this point, but I'll try anyway. I find fundamentalists of any faith to be people who are completely and unchangeably rigid about their beliefs, even to the point of wanting to do harm to someone who is not of their belief system. Example: temple picketing. I am evangelical, but find the practice abhorrent. Another example: those who protested at marine funerals, saying that the Iraq war was God's punishment for homosexuality.

I am what some call a "progressive evangelical". I believe that I need to focus more on my individual spiritual path, rather than telling others to be Christian. With that said, I was raised in a Judeo-Christian home, and there was at one point nine different faiths in my family. Can you imagine the zoo we had when we all got together at Christmas? Some celebrated, others didn't, but that was one of the few times a year all 70 of us could get together. With regards to the question of "what happens to those who are not Christian", I turn to Romans 2:14-16. Please be aware of the version you read, they are not all created equal.

I have worked very hard to make sure that my liberal Christian beliefs can be backed by the Bible. And they can! But those who just read, who do not study, who do not pull out those concordances and those dictionaries, those who do not look to sources to help them understand what they are reading in the Bible, those people will come back with confusion and a bad taste in their mouth about God. I learned so very much that I did not before in this past semester of school. And I once confused fundamentalists and evangelicals, not realising that fundamentalism crossed faith lines. And also, theology is my major, so that is why I am so insistent about things like this. I'm tired of the blurred lines with regards to this. I study hard so that someday when someone asks me why I'm Christian, I can lean on more than just a testimony of feelings.

Fundamentalists are just bigots who are using God as a mask. Evangelicals can be fundamentalists, but they do not have to be. If you click on the link in my last post, you will see the opinions of a few who I think would call themselves born-again/evangelical. One gentleman even gave a good definition of the root of the word evangelical. Evangelicals as a whole are excited about their faith, passionate about it. There are some Evangelicals who fall under the Pentecostal denomination, Charismatic...many of these individuals tend to be very intolerant of other faiths, taking their excitement a bit too far.

But I attend an evangelical church that focuses on hope, not condemnation. My pastor sugar coats nothing, but he strives to make sure we know what we are worth each sunday. Most of us leave there feeling uplifted and ready to take on the world in a good way. Pastor Keith is a humble man, doesn't spend his time pontificating in suits and shouting at us what we could clearly hear in a moderate voice. And all who participate in his ministry, in whatever capacity mirror his love for the people he touches. Strangers walk in there and are family. Money isn't begged for, visitors are told to put their dollars back in their pockets, and they are asked their opinion of our services at the close of each one. When I go to church, I don't feel superior to anyone, such a message hasn't been given in the more than a year that I've been attending. I do however feel hope for my future...and God's love for me. The prayers are often that God would "show up" in the place, and that whoever is speaking would be moved back (ego-wise, which doesn't happen in many churches today) so whatever it is that God has to say can be said properly without humans bungling it. I cannot tell you whether or not this is effective for everyone, but I love the church I have found. And I have been involved with fundamentalist Christianity all my life. My father's side of the family, the distant relatives are nazi-fundie. My grandmother used to tell me when I was a suicidal teen that I would burn in hell. I know how bad fundies are. But again, not all evangelicals are fundies.

There are Evangelicals who are not afraid to study the Bible. They are not afraid to see the areas where things are in question. The Old Testament manual that I studied this past semester says this:

"The authority of God's Word is an essential ingredient to our study. We are committed to it and therefore believe that the content of God's Word is true. God has revealed himself in Scripture, and the act of divine inspiration guarantees the authority and integrity of that revelation.These convictions define us as evangelicals....

It has been our goal to be objective and to stand by the biblical evidence. At times this has led us to a more relaxed position on certain issues than our tradition would indicate. In the process of attempting to present some of the directions and insights that have broadened the horizons of interpretation in recent years, we have tried to exercise caution and discretion. A survey cannot offer the documentation or plumb the depths of the evidence that would normally accompany such discussion. Moreover, we have avoided polemical terminology and argumentation. We simply want to help people understand the message and revelance of the Old Testament and, consequently, to experience the excitement of knowing God."

A Survey of the Old Testament, Second Edition: Andrew E. Hill and John H. Walton, p.14

I attend a university that was founded by one of the most vocal fundamentalists out there today, Pat Robertson. However, not every Christian who teaches at or attends his school thinks like him. We are ALL evangelical, but NOT ALL of us are fundamentalist. It is a conscious choice that we each can make.


I think that Wikepedia has a very good comparison of what exactly Evangelicalism is, and what Fundamentalism is. The above quote is from this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelica ... amentalism

Some quotes for those who probably won't click on the link:

The popular perception seems to locate all of evangelicalism on the 'right' of political controversies, such as abortion, or the expansion of the legal definitions of "family", "marriage", or "civil union" to include same-sex couples. This supposed uniformity is not actually the case; however there is some correspondence between theological and religious conservatism, and social conservatism.

The movement represents a range of Protestant understandings of the Bible, liturgical forms, and church traditions - some of which are very non-traditional, and artistically conceived or innovative. On the average, evangelicals tend to be distrustful of reliance upon historical definitions of belief, if they are not qualified as being subordinate to the Bible; and yet, they may be inclined to refer to these documents of faith in defense of their understanding of the Bible. In controversies with those who favor a more highly structured liturgy, the evangelical party is usually the one in favor of a relatively more simple, casual and participatory form of worship, centered on preaching and sometimes the Lord's Supper (Eucharist), rather than more elaborate ceremony.

Like I said, I don't think this will make much difference, but here's a few tidbits. I know that the belief in even a lesser heaven for mankind is more tasteful than a hell-fire and brimstone sermon....but not all of us evangelicals think everyone but our fellow church members are hell bound. I don't even feel I have the authority to make such a judgement. I'm trying to make sure I'm doing right, that's a full-time job.

[_Sam Harris]

Well thank you, Harmony. You have just told me what I believe. I stand corrected.

No, I told you what Evangelicals believe. I spent my first 18 years as an Evangelical, GIMR. It's not like I didn't grow up in that world.

Sorry, but you're still equating evangelical as fundamentalist. I am evangelical, and I take offense that you percive my faith to be that of what you went through. I have a fundie family and spent time in their world as well. Evangelical faith is not the same as Fundamentalist Christian faith, and a careful perusal and comparison of the two can show that.

Could you do that then? Make a comparison of the two?

Jersey Girl

I echo Jersey Girl's request, GIMR. I would love to read your definitions of the Evangelical vs. the Fundamental Christian and see how you contrast them. It's very interesting stuff! :)

I briefly skimmed the thread you provided a link to. It looked like everyone there had a little different take on their own definitions of each. I would love to hear more of your thoughts; if you would like to start a new thread, that's fine, but I also think it's relevant to the discussion here, so I wouldn't consider it derailing.

Thanks to everyone who has participated on this thread so far. I have really gained insight from reading everyone's views.

I have a few more questions on this topic I would like to add, but I can feel the beginning of a migraine coming on, so I'll have to gather my thoughts tomorrow when my head isn't quite so foggy.

Thanks again, guys!

:)

Migraines suck, go rest. I've posted some stuff, and folks can ask away. You are right, the folks on the other board had a variety of thoughts on the issue, but I didn't sense that they felt the two parties were one and the same.

I too spent time in fundamentalism....not directly through church, but through the painful judgement of my blood kin who felt they were superior to me because they were Christian at a time when I was still figuring God out. Regardless of church attendance on the part of the victim, the bigotry is the same. There was a time when I would have shuddered at the thought of calling myself an evangelical...but then again, I had let a group that claimed five years of my life tell me what evangelicals believed. I left that group and found a faith home...and it dawned on me that I was exactly that which I had disparaged for so long...and evangelical. And I am not ashamed of it, nor do I condemn anyone to hell, nor do I worship a God of conditional love. They put a big reject sticker on my forehead at birth. If God was a god of conditional love, my life would not have been spared as many times as it has been.

Good night everyone.

[_Yoda]

Hi GIMR!

Thank you so much for going into more detail about your faith. I told you, I think we were separated at birth. More of how you and I perceive things confirms it. LOL

You describe yourself as a "progressive evangelical". I suppose I could describe myself as a "progressive Mormon". LOL

There are many elements of the Mormon faith that I adhere to. I agree, though, that more emphasis needs to be placed on hope and self-worth instead of guilt and the overwhelming inferiority complext that tends to happen, especially among women, who feel that they are not in enough places at the same time, doing enough for their family, let alone their fellow man.

I'll expand on this a little more tomorrow when my head is clearer. I just took migraine medicine and am off to bed.

"night all!

Liz