Coffin nails

[_Zakuska]

Whats wrong with Marrying other men's wives? David did it.

The methodology used could be said to be...dishonest at best.

The point being... does that make the Gospel not true?

So what IF Joseph Smith did... does that change the fact of the truthfulness of the work he did?

[_guy sajer]

Whats wrong with Marrying other men's wives? David did it.

The methodology used could be said to be...dishonest at best.

The point being... does that make the Gospel not true?

So what IF Joseph Smith did... does that change the fact of the truthfulness of the work he did?

Not really, it's true or false regardless.

But it does drastically affect his credilbity in assessing the validity of his claims.

This credibility depends to a large degree on the a priori assumptions we hold about the nature and morality of God (e.g., does God really devalue women so) and the expected morality of God's emmissaries (e.g., using a position of power to extract sex from young girls and others who accept you as an authority figure).

It depends also on whether we apply the same standards or morality, propriety, etc. to Joseph Smith as we would to others in his position and the degree to which we're willing to relax those standards in his case.

[_moksha]

Whats wrong with Marrying other men's wives? David did it.

The women's husbands having guns?
I guess it would also depend on how one regards the Ten Commandments as well as the law of the land. I suppose if one were to do this with some frequency, eventually one might get lynched.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sorry. It doesn't come from legal proofs. The type of proofs I would adduce here would be subject to instant mockery.

P

Then let's move it to the celestial forum. I am really curious.
For me the issue is what do I understand about God's nature and did the way plural marriage was introduced, handled and managed coincide with these attributes?

So far the answer to me seems no. Thus I conclude that at least this part of the restoration was not commanded of God even though some may have thought it was.

[_Jason Bourne]

Whats wrong with Marrying other men's wives? David did it.

If I recall, according the LDS doctrine David lost his exaltation for marrying another man's wife. Course he had that man killed.

But this is one of the major flaws in LDS apologetics. Pointing out bad things that people did inthe Bible, or flaws in biblical issues does not help the LDS Church or Joseph Smith. It just shows that Smith did some of the very rottne things or has some of the same flaws that the Bible and the Bible charecters did.

[_guy sajer]

If I recall, according the LDS doctrine David lost his exaltation for marrying another man's wife. Course he had that man killed.

But this is one of the major flaws in LDS apologetics. Pointing out bad things that people did inthe Bible, or flaws in biblical issues does not help the LDS Church or Joseph Smith. It just shows that Smith did some of the very rottne things or has some of the same flaws that the Bible and the Bible charecters did.

It's the ol' "Well, Tommy did it first," kind of excuse that all parents reject when their children try it on them. Whether someone else already did it, or is doing it, is quite irrelevant. The question is "What is the moral framework being invoked" and wheter the act (or statement) is moral (or ethical) within this framework.

Besides, I hardly see how the cultural norms (if that's what they were) of backward, iron age, herding societies are relevant to modern society. I don't care much what a bunch of ancient, misogynist, racist, slave holding, superstitious, men sitting around in goatskin tents had to say about morality. Surely, human society, and our understanding of morality, has evolved significantly since this time.

And I don't believe that if there is a God, that he is bound by the cultural and moral norms of these ancient, misogynist, racist, slave holding, superstitious, men sitting around in goatskin tents.

[_rcrocket]

I readily admit that my use of citations is limited, however, and I would never claim that I "understood" everything.

You're learning from me. Stop using my tactics.

Plutarch nee rcrocket

[_Sethbag]

I think one of the most important things said in this thread to date is whether or not the idea of God commanding Joseph Smith to marry another man's wife while that man is out of town or whatever jives with the impression and understanding of God you have when you learn of it. Growing up in the church, I was, I think, in my twenties by the time I learned of this (only sort-of, roundabout, I didn't learn the full details that are known until a couple years ago), which means by the time I learned about it I had 20something years of "knowing" the God of the LDS church. And I'll tell you what. That God wouldn't have done that.

That's why this news is so hard on a lot of members when the first learn about it. They've developed an understanding of God, his nature, values, etc. over a long period of time, and then find out that Joseph Smith did things which are simply irreconcilable with that view and understanding of God.

Of course, now my understanding of God is that he is a figment of our imaginations. And yet, even in my imagination I can't see God commanding Joseph Smith to send a guy on a mission and then go proposition his wife. Have you ever noticed how in the letters and accounts we have of Joseph propositioning these women, he usually tells them that the Lord has given them to him? Can you honestly see the Lord "giving" a man's wife to Joseph Smith? How can you reconcile that with even your Mormon faith, if you have it? Even the staunchest TBM apologists seem, at best, to just say hey, I don't know, but if the Lord commanded, who am I to tell the Lord what he can and cannot do?

[_beastie]

Good point, Seth. I joined the church at age 19 and adored Joseph Smith in a reverential sense, as I think many members do (second to Jesus and all that). When I read Mormon Enigma over a decade later, I was so shocked I had to read the book twice in a row just to begin to digest this information. I mean, I wouldn't have been more shocked to find out that Mother Theresa was really a street prostitute.

I look at this information and at apologists trying to justify it (but the Old Testament prophets are even worse!!), and it amazes me that anyone would even debate my assertion that apologists have a much, much, much more difficult job than critics. Which job do you really want? Criticizing Joseph Smith for marrying other men's wives, or justifying it?

To me, this is an example of people believing things that outsiders KNOW is just plain nuts. You have to be in the inner circle of belief to not see it. I find it comparable to the Hale Boppers insisting they knew there really WAS a spaceship in the tail of that comet.

[_Seven]

Whats wrong with Marrying other men's wives? David did it.

If I recall, according the LDS doctrine David lost his exaltation for marrying another man's wife. Course he had that man killed.

But this is one of the major flaws in LDS apologetics. Pointing out bad things that people did inthe Bible, or flaws in biblical issues does not help the LDS Church or Joseph Smith. It just shows that Smith did some of the very rottne things or has some of the same flaws that the Bible and the Bible charecters did.

Great post. :) Nice to see a rational believer.
by the way, love the avatar!
(I am a huge Jason Bourne fan and heard #3 will be coming soon......Those are movies I can watch again and never get tired of)