Is Belief a Choice?

[_desert_vulture]

In every culture in the world are found people worshiping a God of one kind or another. The reason for this is simple....

Gazelam, I'm having a hard time seeing how your just-so-story engages the topic of this thread: Is belief a choice?

Faith is a choice. I talked with Juliann about this concept, and thanked her for introducing it to me. You may choose to have faith in many things, in view of conflicting evidence. Faith in creation. Faith in evolution. Faith in aliens. Faith in Mormonism. Faith in scientology. Faith in infallible logic. Faith in the USA. Faith in capitalism. Faith in deism. Faith in your spouse. Faith in your children. Faith in the sun rising tomorrow. Faith in global warming. Faith in science. Faith in the Big Bang theory. Faith in corrupt politicians. Faith in God. Faith in the Virgin Mary. Faith in the system. Faith in George Bush.

Faith is definitely a choice. You can choose to have faith in anything or anyone. And you can also choose not to have faith in anything or anyone. Faith in yourself is defintely a good choice. Faith in others can be a good choice as well.

-DV

I have faith in DV. He never disappoints.

Thanks! Ah, shucks, Sister Mary Lisa, now you've got me blushing.

[_truth dancer]

Hi DV... thanks for your thoughts and insights.

Actually, I think we sort of agree here... in a way. :-)

I think people can indeed have faith in those things that are yet unknown or that are not fully known, or even things they want to believe but are as of yet unsure.

But this is different than just choosing what one believes.

If belief was just about a choice then you could indeed choose to believe the sun was made of green jello, whether it is an irrational belief or not.

My assertion is that, our beliefs are complex and based on numerous things including personal experience, collective understanding, rational thinking, sensory awareness etc. etc. etc. etc.

There are plenty of beliefs I find completely irrational that others find completely true and real. I just can't chose to believe what goes against or is in opposition to, everything that has given me my beliefs. (The sun is made of green jello for example). It is too ridiculous for me to be able to believe it.

Does this make sense?

In other words, those who have faith in something that is unknown, from my observation ALWAYS believe it can be true and that it is NOT an irrational belief, whereas others can not have faith because it is irrational and impossible in their minds.

It seems we can only have faith in that which seems possible. And why would anyone have faith in something that seems impossible... I mean this would be horrible for all sorts of reasons. :-)

In sum, I think we can have faith in the unknown and can chose to believe that which is unknown (to the individual) but I do not think one can arbitrarily chose to believe that which is in opposition to one's experience, reality, and understanding. And I think to have faith that one's world is not what is their reality or experience is very dangerous.

:-)

~dancer~

[_desert_vulture]

In other words, those who have faith in something that is unknown, from my observation ALWAYS believe it can be true and that it is NOT an irrational belief, whereas others can not have faith because it is irrational and impossible in their minds.

I totally agree. However, some people's spiritual experiences seem irrational to everyone except themselves. Does that make their faith irrational? I'm not sure about the answer to that one. I am now in the process of comparing my experiences with people in other belief systems, and have found some amazing similarities.

[_wenglund]

Or someone could teach you about irrational truth seeking: FAITH.

Irrational truth seeking says: "You don't need to drive to the ocean and see it, and seeking such a sign might actually lead you away from the truth. Just think about it and read what others have said, and pray a lot to know it's blood red. And if your eyes or other people try to tell you it's blue, don't worry about it, because that's just the plan of the evil one to lead you astray."

You may choose rational truth seeking -- or irrational truth seeking. You end up with beliefs.

This is the second time on this thread where you have called faith "irrational". And, not that I wish to argue the point, but could it be that the kind of "faith" you personally experienced in your past was irrational (which may explain why you have chosen to abondon it for what you now consider to be "rational truth seeking"), and not faith in general? I ask because, to me, my experience with faith has been quite rational.

Regarding the subject of this thread, though, I think choice is involved on a number of levels with beliefs. We choose what to investigate or not. We choose how deeply we wish to investigate or not. We choose how to weight and interpret the data. We chose what sources to trust or not, and which we deem authoritative or not. We choose to compare and contrast competing beliefs, or not. We choose the criteria for deciding between competing beliefs, etc. etc.

And, believe it or not (pun intended), one can even chose to believe things that their minds, or the minds of others, may consider unbelievable, and also chose not believe things that to their minds, or the minds of others, are very believable. Some of both of these take the form of "mental illness', and others take the form of genius and creativity.

Many of us believe that man is able to fly (having myself flown hundreds of thousands of miles from places to place all around the US), while such a thought would have been thought absurd or insane no less than several centuries ago.

Yet, even with as advanced as we humans have become, technologically, I still ponder in awe and amazement at the human eye and sight (which I have increasing grown to appreciate as I have begun to loose it in the last several years), and doubt that it, like procreation and mortal birth and other things I chose to attribute to divine creation, will ever come close to being rivaled by human innovation.

But, perhaps that just a belief of my choosing. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_marg]

Truth dancer, here are some articles from Skeptical Inquirer you might find interesting addressing the function of beliefs as a survival mechanism.

Why Bad Beliefs don't Die (Nov/Dec 2000 issue)
http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html

Voodoo Science and the Belief Gene (issue sept 1,2000)

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-67691836.html

And another article,

The Belief Engine (May/June 1995 issue)

http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html

[_truth dancer]

Hi DV...

I totally agree. However, some people's spiritual experiences seem irrational to everyone except themselves. Does that make their faith irrational? I'm not sure about the answer to that one. I am now in the process of comparing my experiences with people in other belief systems, and have found some amazing similarities.

I know quite a few people who have beliefs that others find completely irrational.... and I'm quite sure some of my beliefs sound irrational to others. Peoples through the ages had beliefs that, today look irrational but to them they made perfect sense. And, I have worked with a few people who have delusion disorder... they completely believe their "reality" is the true one and everyone else is not "getting" it.

The thing is... we all have beliefs that make sense to us. We believe what seems possible and true (at least to us).

One of the things that bothered me so much as a believer, trying to make sense of "stuff" was that people all over the world have all sorts of spiritual experiences that are as powerful as any LDS spiritual experience. Those of other religions believe just as strongly, have just as amazing experiences, have similar healings, feel the spirit (or spirits) in deeply powerful and life altering ways.

So... I think there is much more to choosing what one beliefs... it just seems to me to be much more complicated than that.

:-)

At least this is a rational belief to me! LOL!

~dancer~

[_wenglund]

But I disagree one can choose to believe something that their experience, knowledge, and understanding tells them clearly, based on experience and evidence, is untrue.

When someone tells me that can choose to believe the sun is made of green jello and really honestly believe it, then I will believe we choose what we want to believe. Until then... I do not think we can arbitrarily believe whatever we want.
~dancer~

I think what you are suggesting is that one cannot necessarily choose to believe something that their prior choices of beliefs thoroughly reject and/or contradict.

I think in many cases you are correct. However, major paradigm shifts are known to occur--for good or ill. And, certain chemical imbalances and psychological trauma's that are reacted to in maladaptive and dysfunctional ways, can cause distortions of reality such that the mind may see as real, things that otherwise would be considered imagined or absurd.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

Hi Wade... :-)

I think in many cases you are correct. However, major paradigm shifts are known to occur--for good or ill.

Absolutely! I just don't think beliefs change because of a choice. :-)

And, certain chemical imbalances and psychological trauma's that are reacted to in maladaptive and dysfunctional ways, can cause distortions of reality such that the mind may see as real, things that otherwise would be considered imagined or absurd.

Yes, beliefs can and do change all the time... new insights, new brain chemistry, new knowledge, new discoveries, etc. etc. etc. all impact how we experience the world, and alter what we believe about life. Absolutly beliefs change.

:-)

~dancer~

[_wenglund]

Yes, beliefs can and do change all the time... new insights, new brain chemistry, new knowledge, new discoveries, etc. etc. etc. all impact how we experience the world, and alter what we believe about life. Absolutly beliefs change. :-) ~dancer~

Consider, though, how it is that those belief's happen to change. Aside from chemical imbalances and trauma to the brain, I don't see how choices would not be inherently involved in the process in a number of ways (some of which I previously deliniated).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

Hi Wade...

Consider, though, how it is that those belief's happen to change. Aside from chemical imbalances and trauma to the brain, I don't see how choices would not be inherently involved in the process in a number of ways (some of which I previously deliniated).

I don't think people just arbitrarily choose to believe something that goes against their awareness, but, if they get new information, experience something new, learn a new idea etc. etc., then they see the world differently and therefore beliefs may change.

I just have yet to know someone who could truly believe something that was directly contradicted by their experience of reality and truth.

For example... lets go back to a time when everyone thought the world was flat. They held this "truth" as reality because there was nothing to tell them otherwise. But... when the understanding came into the consciousness of humans through research, experience, etc. etc., people were able to adopt this new information into their reality thereby creating different beliefs. The old ideas were released as new knowledge and experience came into being.

Now, obviously there were those who refused to believe the world was round (there are still such folks - smile), but overall, as the information and experience came into the world, it became harder and harder for people to believe the world is flat, because it completely is in opposition to one's reality.

I don't think anyone who has the experience and understanding of a round earth can just choose to believe the earth is flat.

Does that make sense?

~dancer~